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Many countries that said no to ChatControl in 2024 are now undecided

digitalcourage.social

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Re: Many countries that said no to ChatControl in 2024 are now undecided

#91

Post by normalaccess »

vaylian wrote: post #52
rdm_blackhole wrote: post #26

Time to move to self hosted messaging platforms or go back to GPG encrypted messages. And politicians complain that democracy is losing it's appeal! What's the difference between what the EU wants to do and what is being done in autocracies like China and Russia? Snooping on all messages and conversations, even the Stasi did not have this much power!

> Time to move to self hosted messaging platforms or go back to GPG encrypted messages. That works only if all your contacts are technically educated enough. It's more important to look for political solutions than technical workarounds. We need to protect the communication of everyone by preventing this law from passing.

Nothing can stop the ratchet like progress clamping down on information control. These policies have been war gammed by think tanks decades in advance. The enemy is vast and deep with the control of nearly every nation-state on earth.

The overwhelming majority will be swept into a Neo-Dark Ages where truth is locked away and Dogma rules supreme. For a time the lockdown will be universal and complete but after the system is in place for a time I believe people will find a solution and break off the shackles.

Re: Many countries that said no to ChatControl in 2024 are now undecided

#92

Post by [deleted] »

anaisbetts wrote: post #39
Havoc wrote: post #19

Entire world seems to be making a pivot to surveillance state :(

The entire world realized that now that the Internet has killed off all of the third places / IRL meetings, and social media killed off the decentralized Internet, it's quite easy to fully control the discourse around any topic, since only a few social media organizations effectively decide what everyone sees (even if you're independent, Social Media decides which ideas/content gets traffic). Question is, how do we g…

[deleted]

Re: Many countries that said no to ChatControl in 2024 are now undecided

#93

Post by thewebguyd »

vaylian wrote: post #52
rdm_blackhole wrote: post #26

Time to move to self hosted messaging platforms or go back to GPG encrypted messages. And politicians complain that democracy is losing it's appeal! What's the difference between what the EU wants to do and what is being done in autocracies like China and Russia? Snooping on all messages and conversations, even the Stasi did not have this much power!

> Time to move to self hosted messaging platforms or go back to GPG encrypted messages. That works only if all your contacts are technically educated enough. It's more important to look for political solutions than technical workarounds. We need to protect the communication of everyone by preventing this law from passing.

> It's more important to look for political solutions than technical workarounds. We need to protect the communication of everyone by preventing this law from passing.

More important, yes, but we still need the technical workarounds, and to educate people about them, for when preventing these laws ultimately fail. It's becoming crystal clear that "we the people" have no power anymore, and the way we can take some of that power back is by not participating in their laws - self hosting, use services outside of the jurisdictions where backdoors are mandatory, educating and helping others do the same.

Make the internet a digital no man's land. Make alternative networks, stuff like Yggdrasil and meshtastic.

When preventing the laws from passing fails, we still need to make it as difficult as possible to enforce.

Re: Many countries that said no to ChatControl in 2024 are now undecided

#94

Post by spencerflem »

anaisbetts wrote: post #39
Havoc wrote: post #19

Entire world seems to be making a pivot to surveillance state :(

The entire world realized that now that the Internet has killed off all of the third places / IRL meetings, and social media killed off the decentralized Internet, it's quite easy to fully control the discourse around any topic, since only a few social media organizations effectively decide what everyone sees (even if you're independent, Social Media decides which ideas/content gets traffic). Question is, how do we g…

My solice is that it’s all temporary, as climate catastrophe will bring down whatever system they’re building before too long

Re: Many countries that said no to ChatControl in 2024 are now undecided

#95

Post by Der_Einzige »

afarah1 wrote: post #50
McDyver wrote: post #30

They make it really difficult to fight any of this. You have to, individually - find a representative, their contact info, state your case, hope it's the correct person, hope your mail doesn't go unnoticed, hope that it will be properly read, hope it changes their mind. This is "lobbying" by the people in a disorganised way, trying to fight organised lobbying. This is a barrier that puts lots of people off, even if t…

Same for any legislation piece. A law that costs 100M people $1 and benefits 100 people with $1M. Would be, as you noted, costly to oppose, not worth the $1 nor the time. And at the same time, very profitable for the 100 to spend hundreds of thousands and great effort lobbying for. It's just the power structure of any representative legislature. "In vain do we fly to the many"...

Plato's "republic" (one of the worst books in human history) and every justification in that book and every book citing it is trotted out to argue for how bad direct democracy is.

Now we act like it's not good because Athens got its shit pushed in by Sparta during the Peloponnesian war.

Direct democracy is good. One person one vote, on all legislation, actually could work. We haven't even tried at scale in thousands of years.

It's telling that my boy Smedly Butler (ask your US marine friends who he is and they will recite his story perfectly or else their bootcamp will have smoked them for it) advocated for a military draft where the draft eligible are only drawn up from the list of folks who voted yes on the war.

Re: Many countries that said no to ChatControl in 2024 are now undecided

#96

Post by RamblingCTO »

IncreasePosts wrote: post #28
betaby wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's against the German constitution No one cares. Like anywhere in the world.

Just saying "It's unconstitutional" doesn't really cut it. It's a question for the courts to decide (based on the constitution).

They did already, multiple times now. Hence my original comment.

Re: Many countries that said no to ChatControl in 2024 are now undecided

#97

Post by ulrikrasmussen »

rdm_blackhole wrote: post #36
supermatt wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter what you use. It is your device that will be doing the snooping - i.e. client-side scanning

The CSS in the proposal is implemented on an app level, like Whatsapp or Signal does the detection before sending the encrypted message, not at the OS level. If you use an app that connects to your own xmpp server, there will be no snopping. Same if you encrypt your message and post it in Whatsapp.

I'm worried that as soon as this is implemented, someone will make a patched version of the signal client which doesn't do the scanning, and soon after all the affected apps will be forced by law to use remote attestation like Play Integrity.

Re: Many countries that said no to ChatControl in 2024 are now undecided

#98

Post by RamblingCTO »

betaby wrote: post #22
RamblingCTO wrote: post #20

I really don't get it. It's against the German constitution and yet there are still politicians pushing for that, again and again. We should make it mandatory that when something is clearly against the constitution you loose your job as a politician. It won't work anyway. It's the same spiel wasting so much money and time. Do we know which lobby group/party is pushing for that yet again?

> It's against the German constitution No one cares. Like anywhere in the world.

I think your comment was taken as "no one cares about Germany"/being snarky. But it can also be read as "those who should do not respect the constitution, like anywhere in the world". I assume the latter, am I correct?

Re: Many countries that said no to ChatControl in 2024 are now undecided

#99

Post by sneak »

ryandrake wrote: post #87
sidewndr46 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the failings of most modern democracies is that if a measure doesn't pass, nothing prohibits it from being introduced again immediately. I've seen ballot initiatives simply get copy pasted onto each election by city council until they happen to pass.

The deck is stacked. They only have to win once, and it's law. You have to win over and over every time it's introduced.

Heinlein in The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress proposed a bicameral legislature, where one half needs a 66% majority to pass a law. The other half’s only job is to repeal laws, which they can do with a 50% majority.

Re: Many countries that said no to ChatControl in 2024 are now undecided

#100

Post by cocoto »

thrance wrote: post #71
scythe wrote: post #14

Is this an active "undecided" or a "we restarted the count so everyone is undecided again" situation? France flipped, but Macron is more geopolitically mercurial than the average world leader.

He's riding that right wing populism wave like everyone else. If the crazy brown authoritarians from the far right want this, then why not cave in? (I despise him).

The far right in France doesn’t want ChatControl. In fact I think only the soft left, middle and soft right want ChatControl (and it is not even a consensus for among these groups).
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