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Many countries that said no to ChatControl in 2024 are now undecided

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Re: Many countries that said no to ChatControl in 2024 are now undecided

#81

Post by normalaccess »

iLoveOncall wrote: post #4
nickslaughter02 wrote: post #2

Full post: Leak: Many countries that said NO to #ChatControl in 2024 are now undecided—even though the 2025 plan is even more extreme! The vote is THIS October. Tell your government to #StopChatControl! Act now: https://chatcontrol.eu

That website is pretty bad. Don't say "act now" with a link when the link has no concrete actions listed. "Ask your government not to do that" means absolutely nothing. There should be a list of what people should do step by step based on their country.

With the way the world is I wouldn't be suppressed if it's been infiltrated and is controlled opposition designed to fail.

Re: Many countries that said no to ChatControl in 2024 are now undecided

#82

Post by whimsicalism »

graemep wrote: post #27
RamblingCTO wrote: post #20

I really don't get it. It's against the German constitution and yet there are still politicians pushing for that, again and again. We should make it mandatory that when something is clearly against the constitution you loose your job as a politician. It won't work anyway. It's the same spiel wasting so much money and time. Do we know which lobby group/party is pushing for that yet again?

Is it clearly against the constitution? What happens when the constitution clashes with EU law? Can the constitution be amended and is it likely if there is a clash with EU law on this issue? Enormous pressure can be brought to bear in politicians over something like this. The most prominent British politician to oppose the Online Safety Act in the UK is being labelled as "helping people like Jimmy Saville" by the go…

the UK essentially does not have a constitution nor any significant judicial authority over lawmaking

Re: Many countries that said no to ChatControl in 2024 are now undecided

#83

Post by normalaccess »

oytis wrote: post #73

Are they going to vote on that every year until it passes?

Yes, there is no stopping it with the current structure and tools. They will push until the people give in. Best to prepare for it's existence and figure out how to use the good old sneaker-net.

Re: Many countries that said no to ChatControl in 2024 are now undecided

#84

Post by NoMoreNicksLeft »

soulofmischief wrote: post #59
sidewndr46 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the failings of most modern democracies is that if a measure doesn't pass, nothing prohibits it from being introduced again immediately. I've seen ballot initiatives simply get copy pasted onto each election by city council until they happen to pass.

A well-funded institution will always outlast an individual or smaller organization in a war of attrition. I think a modern Constitution needs to consider 19-20th-century concepts such as game theory if it has any hope of preventing eventual corruption.

The same game theory that could make a modern constitution so robust could also be used by the bad guys to thoroughly corrupt the drafting of any modern constitution you could get enacted.

Re: Many countries that said no to ChatControl in 2024 are now undecided

#85

Post by Ylpertnodi »

wyuenho wrote: post #76
McDyver wrote: post #30

They make it really difficult to fight any of this. You have to, individually - find a representative, their contact info, state your case, hope it's the correct person, hope your mail doesn't go unnoticed, hope that it will be properly read, hope it changes their mind. This is "lobbying" by the people in a disorganised way, trying to fight organised lobbying. This is a barrier that puts lots of people off, even if t…

The UK has a petition website. It logs the signatory by constituency. Once a threshold os signatory has cross, the government has to respond and parliament will have to consider a debate on the topic.

And just because they respond, it doesn't actually mean anything will result from it.

"No more something!" "We have seen your petition. Fuck off, peasants".

Re: Many countries that said no to ChatControl in 2024 are now undecided

#86

Post by deaddodo »

sidewndr46 wrote: post #49
McDyver wrote: post #30

They make it really difficult to fight any of this. You have to, individually - find a representative, their contact info, state your case, hope it's the correct person, hope your mail doesn't go unnoticed, hope that it will be properly read, hope it changes their mind. This is "lobbying" by the people in a disorganised way, trying to fight organised lobbying. This is a barrier that puts lots of people off, even if t…

One of the failings of most modern democracies is that if a measure doesn't pass, nothing prohibits it from being introduced again immediately. I've seen ballot initiatives simply get copy pasted onto each election by city council until they happen to pass.

Meanwhile, they make the dismantling of legislation near impossible. You have to go through the same process, but in inverse; and hope that miraculously the representatives in gov't become altruistic with a desire for less power.

Re: Many countries that said no to ChatControl in 2024 are now undecided

#87

Post by ryandrake »

sidewndr46 wrote: post #49
McDyver wrote: post #30

They make it really difficult to fight any of this. You have to, individually - find a representative, their contact info, state your case, hope it's the correct person, hope your mail doesn't go unnoticed, hope that it will be properly read, hope it changes their mind. This is "lobbying" by the people in a disorganised way, trying to fight organised lobbying. This is a barrier that puts lots of people off, even if t…

One of the failings of most modern democracies is that if a measure doesn't pass, nothing prohibits it from being introduced again immediately. I've seen ballot initiatives simply get copy pasted onto each election by city council until they happen to pass.

The deck is stacked. They only have to win once, and it's law. You have to win over and over every time it's introduced.

Re: Many countries that said no to ChatControl in 2024 are now undecided

#88

Post by deaddodo »

soulofmischief wrote: post #59
sidewndr46 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the failings of most modern democracies is that if a measure doesn't pass, nothing prohibits it from being introduced again immediately. I've seen ballot initiatives simply get copy pasted onto each election by city council until they happen to pass.

A well-funded institution will always outlast an individual or smaller organization in a war of attrition. I think a modern Constitution needs to consider 19-20th-century concepts such as game theory if it has any hope of preventing eventual corruption.

Look at SOPA/PIPA. They simultaneously pushed the same bill through both chambers to try and guarantee it would pass. Grassroots efforts led to it being overwhelmingly blocked in both cases. And then they just slowly slipped most of it's provisions through other legislation over the years.

Re: Many countries that said no to ChatControl in 2024 are now undecided

#89

Post by loa_in_ »

anthk wrote: post #74
ulrikrasmussen wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am Danish and I fucking hate my government for this. Nationally, the minister of justice Peter Hummelgaard is also pushing for a law which gives the police intelligence agency (PET) the right to basically do mass surveillance of everyone without prior suspicion of any criminal activity. If passed, they will be allowed to build a database of everyone which correlates social media activity with health care data and a…

Public Unix server will get a Reissanance. Tons of folks will learn to live under small Nix account to chat privately under remote Tox accounts or over I2PD. This will only boost up populace's knowledge. Kinda like in Spain tons of people learnt to either burn cards with microcontrollers in order to pirate TV top boxes or run Nagra and satellite decoders with keys dumped fron sketchy sites to be read with Kaffeine. A…

These things won't magically boost populace's knowledge. People are born every day and they don't know anything. Each year the burden of things you need to know to be an adult increases. The populationbon general will not get hands on with something optional.

Re: Many countries that said no to ChatControl in 2024 are now undecided

#90

Post by sidewndr46 »

Kim_Bruning wrote: post #62
sidewndr46 wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the failings of most modern democracies is that if a measure doesn't pass, nothing prohibits it from being introduced again immediately. I've seen ballot initiatives simply get copy pasted onto each election by city council until they happen to pass.

That's what constitutional amendments are for, right? (or in this case ECHR updates)

Not really. There have been multiple times that California passed ballot initiatives that violated their own constitution.

At the federal level in the US we have the annoying problem that effectively everything is interstate commerce.

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