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.NET 10 Preview 6 brings JIT improvements, one-shot tool execution

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Re: .NET 10 Preview 6 brings JIT improvements, one-shot tool execution

#131

Post by 75345d4c »

Alupis wrote: post #63
atombender wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know about any sizeable open source projects written in C#, other than what Microsoft has produced? I rarely come across anything written in it.

It's a curious thing, the .NET ecosystem. The overwhelming majority of it's ecosystem seems to be dominated by Microsoft first-party libraries and frameworks. 3rd party libraries and frameworks seem to either get swallowed up by Microsoft, killed, or never reach critical-mass. Often in the .NET ecosystem, it seems there is exactly one library or framework for thing $X or $Y. Whereas in the JVM ecosystem, you have 30+…

Why would anyone make a .NET open source library when Microsoft is quick to squash anything that is actually useful with their own open source implementation?

Microsoft still has some lessons to learn about fostering an active open source ecosystem -- of course, unless they are intentionally suppressing it in .NET.

Re: .NET 10 Preview 6 brings JIT improvements, one-shot tool execution

#132

Post by vizzier »

zigzag312 wrote: post #104
atombender wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know about any sizeable open source projects written in C#, other than what Microsoft has produced? I rarely come across anything written in it.

https://github.com/MonoGame/MonoGame (runs even on consoles, which is rare for open source game frameworks and engines) https://github.com/SubtitleEdit/subtitleedit https://github.com/jellyfin/jellyfin https://github.com/AvaloniaUI/Avalonia https://github.com/bitwarden/server https://github.com/unoplatform/uno https://github.com/files-community/Files https://github.com/NickeManarin/ScreenToGif https://github.com/DevT…

https://github.com/quozd/awesome-dotnet

Re: .NET 10 Preview 6 brings JIT improvements, one-shot tool execution

#133

Post by nickpeterson »

eyegor wrote: post #72
munchler wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of many examples of C# following in F#'s footprints years later. F# deserves a higher profile in the .NET ecosystem.

F# has been a third class citizen for a long time... Last I heard the entire f# team was ~10 people. Pretty sure "find references" still doesn't work across c# and f# (if you call a c# method from f# or vise versa). That also means symbol renames don't work correctly.

I agree, but somewhat paradoxically, F#’s lack of new features kind of becomes a feature. Have you seen the number of C# features added in the last 5-10 years? It’s crazy

Re: .NET 10 Preview 6 brings JIT improvements, one-shot tool execution

#134

Post by runevault »

pjmlp wrote: post #125
reactordev wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree as well. The hostile attitude towards OSS under Ballmer led to this. Nadella had the correct approach and a year later, started repairing those bridges, joining the Linux Foundation.

Many things under Satya also feel like good old Microsoft, like lack of GUI frameworks for GNU/Linux, killing VS4Mac after the rewrite, dotnet watch drama, profiling tools being VS only,...

MAUI not supporting Linux feels like such a huge whiff. It is clearly possible to get at least decent cross platform support that includes linux in .net considering Avalonia exists.

Re: .NET 10 Preview 6 brings JIT improvements, one-shot tool execution

#135

Post by reactordev »

lowleveldesign wrote: post #114
reactordev wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue was in the beginning they didn’t think interop with C/C++ was value add. People complained and they added “Managed C++” which unfortunately influenced C++03’s design a lot. It wasn’t until C++11 that Microsoft gave up. You couldn’t effectively interop with C++ without writing a managed C++ wrapper, which only worked on windows. They added support for P/Invoke to aid in Win32 calls (shell.dll, user32.dll) as…

Interestingly, the Rust windows crate is generated from an MSIL assembly. And same metadata might be used to generate C# bindings thanks to cswin32 [1] project. The meta-assembly generation (Win32 metadata project) is based on clangsharp and it's fairly straightforward to generate interop code for native Windows libraries. Some time ago I described this process on my blog for the detours library [2] [1] https://githu…

The point is why is another language generating anything for C#?

Re: .NET 10 Preview 6 brings JIT improvements, one-shot tool execution

#136

Post by reactordev »

mathverse wrote: post #129
pjmlp wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I very much doubt about TS.Net, given the rewrite in Go decision. .NET nowadays has a serious adoption problem, and they should spend more time talking with their own colleagues at Azure, about their use of Java, Go, Rust.

I would not touch C# unless you are already using it. Microsoft proves over and over it cannot be trusted in what they say. Watch what they do: - basically dont use ant UI framework they say is the future and they are not using themselves - be vary of the future of some of it stuff like C#

Oh I learned this the hard way. Managed DirectX, XNA, Creators Club, Windows Store, shared profit motive, fair business practices, Project Natal/Kinect, Azure, and finally… .Net. Yup, Microsoft loves developers… loves their subscriptions.

Re: .NET 10 Preview 6 brings JIT improvements, one-shot tool execution

#137

Post by reactordev »

pjmlp wrote: post #125
reactordev wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree as well. The hostile attitude towards OSS under Ballmer led to this. Nadella had the correct approach and a year later, started repairing those bridges, joining the Linux Foundation.

Many things under Satya also feel like good old Microsoft, like lack of GUI frameworks for GNU/Linux, killing VS4Mac after the rewrite, dotnet watch drama, profiling tools being VS only,...

VS4Mac deserved to die, that was Mono Code aka Xamarin and it was terrible. No offense to Miguel, mono is amazing, but the IDE they made was horrid.

Microsoft was asleep at the wheel the last decade of Ballmer, leaning too heavily on their Xbox Studios and Enterprise Cloud to care about desktops. They gladly let Mac take office share as “no enterprise software developer would ever choose a Mac”. Those famous Mac vs PC ads.

The GUI development story has plagued us for a long time. No one wants to take on the challenge of a unified user interface spec. Why? Because it will always be wrong - ever changing - and a giant suck of corporate resources.

It’s better to let each team think of their own way of doing things. Then, they can choose the best of them and release them as frameworks (WPF) only to be abandoned by the next regime change.

MAUI, UWA, Metro, WPF, all an attempt to save what effort they have made. Ultimately, everyone loves their Electron apps, so HTML has become to new UI paradigm. They move too slowly. Convinced “they know better than you” and will spend the next 5 years hyping up the next XML abomination.

Re: .NET 10 Preview 6 brings JIT improvements, one-shot tool execution

#138

Post by reactordev »

rictic wrote: post #110
reactordev wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. The stability comes from its ecosystem though. Enterprise Software. Where things like meticulous use of Omit and Task are common place and really REALLY bad things happen if you fuck up. But besides that, there’s a healthy gamedev community that embraced C# early and have been using it ever since. There’s C++ MFC guys that got duped into WPF and have been supporting it ever since. Winforms devs that are stil…

What's Omit refer to in this context?

The 14,000~ instances of T? or _

Re: .NET 10 Preview 6 brings JIT improvements, one-shot tool execution

#139

Post by louthy »

atombender wrote: post #50
tester756 wrote: post #11

.NET was the most sane programming ecosystem that I worked in. Great CLI, great package manager, very good stdlib, strong IDEs/Debuggers, etc. but sadly interesting jobs like OSes, databases and compilers are way less common than in C++ world :(

Do you know about any sizeable open source projects written in C#, other than what Microsoft has produced? I rarely come across anything written in it.

Not sure what your definition of sizable is. But if it’s just physical size of repo then my language-ext project [1] is about half a million lines of code, ~7,000 stars, and ~25 million downloads.

We are out there :)

[1] https://github.com/louthy/language-ext

Re: .NET 10 Preview 6 brings JIT improvements, one-shot tool execution

#140

Post by [deleted] »

Ygg2 wrote: post #69
tester756 wrote: post #11

.NET was the most sane programming ecosystem that I worked in. Great CLI, great package manager, very good stdlib, strong IDEs/Debuggers, etc. but sadly interesting jobs like OSes, databases and compilers are way less common than in C++ world :(

> .NET was the most sane programming ecosystem that I worked in. Having written libraries in .Net I fully disagree with that notion. First insanity is figuring out what in the fuck you need to support. .Net framework or .Net standard or .Net Core or Mono (or .Net Duplo or .Net dot nes :P). Second is the Source generators. I swear using t4 templates is the saner option. I've had cached artifacts appearing out of the f…

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