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.NET 10 Preview 6 brings JIT improvements, one-shot tool execution

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Re: .NET 10 Preview 6 brings JIT improvements, one-shot tool execution

#61

Post by munchler »

jug wrote: post #32

My favorite .NET 10 feature so far is not within the .NET library itself, but `dotnet tool exec` to run C# files as scripts without a build step. This has been available in F# for a long time via `dotnet fsi`, and for C# also via the third party cs-script tool. It took a surprisingly long time to officially reach the primary .NET language! I only really wish C# would’ve been directly integrated as an alternative scri…

One of many examples of C# following in F#'s footprints years later. F# deserves a higher profile in the .NET ecosystem.

Re: .NET 10 Preview 6 brings JIT improvements, one-shot tool execution

#62

Post by WorldMaker »

rafaelmn wrote: post #27
mattgreenrocks wrote: post #2

All I want is for dotnet watch to behave in a predictable way. In .NET 9, even when using —no-hot-reload, sometimes CSS changes to components are not picked up on Blazor components. It’s so aggravating because ASP.NET with server side Blazor components really has it all: type safety, server-side components ala Astro, fantastic ORM model, great runtime perf. But this little issue makes dev quite tedious at present: di…

I inherited an MVC app that has a bunch of jQuery rendering crap and I would like to move to server side components - since you seem to be into Blazor Server side - have you heard of HTMX ? What would you say would be the benefit of Blazor vs HTMX and Razor Pages for subviews ? My experience with Microsoft UI toolkits after winforms, is that they are all janky over-engineered stuff (Silverlight/WPF/Xamarin/Maui) terr…

I still haven't found a use-case for the websocket Blazor Hybrid and it still smells so much like the worst mistakes of the original ASP (before .NET) and the `runat="client"` versus `runat="server"` confusions.

Blazor WASM makes some sense if Silverlight ever made sense for a project: it's a way to ship C# directly to the browser for maximal code sharing with other C# projects in a C# ecosystem. It's basically "what if Angular/React was just Razor Pages running on the browser?"

It's absolutely the opposite of KISS, it's lifting and shifting the entire .NET runtime in WASM to the client. Outside of corporate networks and packaged apps like Electron or Tauri, I'm not sure it makes any sense. But if you like writing Razor Pages and wished they ran closer to the client metal, and you can afford the bandwidth of an entire .NET application soup-to-nuts as your SPA framework, there is a sense to it.

If all you think you need is Razor Pages with HTMX that's probably all you need.

Re: .NET 10 Preview 6 brings JIT improvements, one-shot tool execution

#63

Post by Alupis »

atombender wrote: post #50
tester756 wrote: post #11

.NET was the most sane programming ecosystem that I worked in. Great CLI, great package manager, very good stdlib, strong IDEs/Debuggers, etc. but sadly interesting jobs like OSes, databases and compilers are way less common than in C++ world :(

Do you know about any sizeable open source projects written in C#, other than what Microsoft has produced? I rarely come across anything written in it.

It's a curious thing, the .NET ecosystem. The overwhelming majority of it's ecosystem seems to be dominated by Microsoft first-party libraries and frameworks. 3rd party libraries and frameworks seem to either get swallowed up by Microsoft, killed, or never reach critical-mass.

Often in the .NET ecosystem, it seems there is exactly one library or framework for thing $X or $Y. Whereas in the JVM ecosystem, you have 30+ logging libraries, 87 different MVC frameworks, etc. (yes, I'm being a bit facetious, but you get the point).

I imagine .NET developers often think this is a good thing, in regard to their ecosystem. No guessing what to use, just go with the "blessed" path and don't think about it. And, to that end, there is some obvious merit to this.

However, I feel the .NET ecosystem loses out on cross-pollination of ideas. There's zero possibility Microsoft's employees just happen to make the best frameworks and libraries... there should be many web frameworks - each competing for mindshare and trying to out-innovate each other, each with their own pro's and con's, etc.

So, while .NET might be technically open source, it still feels rather like a closed source ecosystem, controlled by a single corporate entity.

Re: .NET 10 Preview 6 brings JIT improvements, one-shot tool execution

#65

Post by cogman10 »

pjmlp wrote: post #16
reactordev wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. The stability comes from its ecosystem though. Enterprise Software. Where things like meticulous use of Omit and Task are common place and really REALLY bad things happen if you fuck up. But besides that, there’s a healthy gamedev community that embraced C# early and have been using it ever since. There’s C++ MFC guys that got duped into WPF and have been supporting it ever since. Winforms devs that are stil…

I very much doubt about TS.Net, given the rewrite in Go decision. .NET nowadays has a serious adoption problem, and they should spend more time talking with their own colleagues at Azure, about their use of Java, Go, Rust.

I blame historic microsoft for their anti-oss stance. It kneecapped the .net ecosystem for over a decade and created an attitude of "if it isn't in .NET, I won't use it".

Re: .NET 10 Preview 6 brings JIT improvements, one-shot tool execution

#66

Post by WorldMaker »

nic547 wrote: post #53
brokencode wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is upgrading every 3 years really that bad? As far as I know, they typically aren’t removing features or causing disruptive changes in .NET versions. They did when switching away from .NET Framework, but this was because they had to reimplement many features from scratch to work on other platforms, and certain parts got left behind.

.NET LTS is on a 2-year cycle, isn't it? I've worked in .NET shops with very niche WPF/WinForms applications where customers were years behind with our software/major .NET Framework releases. I don't think it's a technical challenge, more a cultural one.

A shift in those cultural dynamics is that you can ship the current .NET LTS with your app (or even STS if you feel like making that sort of security support SLA with your own clients). You aren't relying on their Windows Update habits (or lack of them) or having to install a big .NET installer that might break their other apps.

They may still get left behind on an older version of your software because they want to be, but their relationship to Windows is no longer the big excuse/reason to skip updating to your latest that it used to be.

Re: .NET 10 Preview 6 brings JIT improvements, one-shot tool execution

#67

Post by whoknowsidont »

zbentley wrote: post #9
whoknowsidont wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Say more?

Why does his statement not require more substance? Why do I have to provide it? The burden is the other way around.

Blazor's architectural model makes it impossible to be "performant." It's not even debatable.

What you gain in DevEx you lose substantially in user experience.

Re: .NET 10 Preview 6 brings JIT improvements, one-shot tool execution

#68

Post by cogman10 »

Alupis wrote: post #63
atombender wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you know about any sizeable open source projects written in C#, other than what Microsoft has produced? I rarely come across anything written in it.

It's a curious thing, the .NET ecosystem. The overwhelming majority of it's ecosystem seems to be dominated by Microsoft first-party libraries and frameworks. 3rd party libraries and frameworks seem to either get swallowed up by Microsoft, killed, or never reach critical-mass. Often in the .NET ecosystem, it seems there is exactly one library or framework for thing $X or $Y. Whereas in the JVM ecosystem, you have 30+…

That because that's the environment MS nurtured for over a decade. They were openly hostile to things like nuget up until like 2016 or so.

They purposefully made it painful to venture out of the MS ecosystem.

Re: .NET 10 Preview 6 brings JIT improvements, one-shot tool execution

#69

Post by Ygg2 »

tester756 wrote: post #11

.NET was the most sane programming ecosystem that I worked in. Great CLI, great package manager, very good stdlib, strong IDEs/Debuggers, etc. but sadly interesting jobs like OSes, databases and compilers are way less common than in C++ world :(

> .NET was the most sane programming ecosystem that I worked in.

Having written libraries in .Net I fully disagree with that notion.

First insanity is figuring out what in the fuck you need to support. .Net framework or .Net standard or .Net Core or Mono (or .Net Duplo or .Net dot nes :P).

Second is the Source generators. I swear using t4 templates is the saner option. I've had cached artifacts appearing out of the fucking nowhere like unkillable zombies despite closing the Rider, clearing its cache, and killing build server.

Third is the availability of packages. In Rust and Java there are like several libs for anything (even if C bindings).

Re: .NET 10 Preview 6 brings JIT improvements, one-shot tool execution

#70

Post by WorldMaker »

oneplane wrote: post #54
sergiotapia wrote: post #46

I haven't used C#/.NET since .NET 4 - I remember it was great, yet heavily tied into Visual Studio, and forget about using CLI for things like most other languages. It was all GUI or nothing. Insurmountable XML files. How are things these days with .NET 10! Jesus, 10! Dudes who use it daily, what is your favorite feature you think?

It's still stuck in weird formats and monoliths. A lot of GUI-only stuff has been ported to the mega CLI, but it's still the weird Visual Studio format plus XML files that you cannot replace with a simple Makefile. You still can't just compile a bit of C# as-is, it must have the Solution, Project, Assembly etc. chain, the run-as-script feature is nice (lots of cheers when that was presented! even on the live stream),…

> it's still the weird Visual Studio format

.NET 9 (and VS2022) added support for the SLNX replacement format to replace the old weird solution format:

https://devblogs.microsoft.com/visualstudio/new-simpler-solu...

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