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More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

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Re: More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

#61

Post by Empact »

sunshowers wrote: post #40
pseudosavant wrote: post #12

Very interesting. Relates to conversations I've had recently regarding trans people in sports. Turns out that conversation isn't simple, because gender is way more complex than the binary M/F options society has tried to act like it is. Between reasons like in this article, or being born intersex, etc, there are definitely people with female chromosomes who have competed in men's sports, or people with female sex org…

The important thing to recognize is that fairness is a pretty fuzzy concept and a lot of the boundary between fair and unfair is defined by particular societal norms (socially constructed, if you will). All elite athletes have biological advantages not afforded to ordinary humans like us. People like Michael Phelps and Alex Honnold are specific examples of course, but even after years of training most people cannot p…

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Re: More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

#62

Post by _Algernon_ »

pitched wrote: post #54
pseudosavant wrote: post #12

Very interesting. Relates to conversations I've had recently regarding trans people in sports. Turns out that conversation isn't simple, because gender is way more complex than the binary M/F options society has tried to act like it is. Between reasons like in this article, or being born intersex, etc, there are definitely people with female chromosomes who have competed in men's sports, or people with female sex org…

Coming from a place of curiosity not knowledge with this. Is it not true that strength roughly matches testosterone levels and that is bimodal in the population? Could what we call women’s sports today not be defined on that axis instead?

Since the distributions overlap you are going to make a lot of people unhappy no matter where you put the cut-off.

Re: More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

#63

Post by KittenInABox »

OutOfHere wrote: post #45
KittenInABox wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

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Obviously you took it maximally out of context, just as someone operating in bad faith would do. To restate with more clarity, if "she" doesn't menstruate (at a valid of menstruation) or doesn't develop natural breasts, she may not be able to give birth.

I'm merely responding with the bad faith reading you're presenting here, as woman is a squishy and cultural word to describe an additionally squishy biological set of states. At no point does the article declare them not to be women, only that they are women with genetic conditions from having a Y chromosome (or even just a section of the Y chromosome), a shorthand of which they call "genetically men".

Re: More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

#64

Post by mmanfrin »

Empact wrote: post #61
sunshowers wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The important thing to recognize is that fairness is a pretty fuzzy concept and a lot of the boundary between fair and unfair is defined by particular societal norms (socially constructed, if you will). All elite athletes have biological advantages not afforded to ordinary humans like us. People like Michael Phelps and Alex Honnold are specific examples of course, but even after years of training most people cannot p…

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Re: More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

#65

Post by kjkjadksj »

pitched wrote: post #54
pseudosavant wrote: post #12

Very interesting. Relates to conversations I've had recently regarding trans people in sports. Turns out that conversation isn't simple, because gender is way more complex than the binary M/F options society has tried to act like it is. Between reasons like in this article, or being born intersex, etc, there are definitely people with female chromosomes who have competed in men's sports, or people with female sex org…

Coming from a place of curiosity not knowledge with this. Is it not true that strength roughly matches testosterone levels and that is bimodal in the population? Could what we call women’s sports today not be defined on that axis instead?

At that point what would actually be fair is relegating high test and low test males as well. I think we all remember that one or a couple kids in school who were a full head taller than their peers and dominated every sport in gym class as a result.

Re: More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

#66

Post by kulahan »

realo wrote: post #22
kulahan wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing in biology is really binary anyways. Male and female are just useful groupings because we’re a sexually dimorphic species, but as with anything in nature, that’s mostly a spectrum anyways, with strong representations at the anchoring ends.

There is a certain degree of muted cynicism in the parent comment that is quite delightful...

Yep, just thought this was an interesting point to go along with the theme.

Re: More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

#67

Post by blueflow »

Aurornis wrote: post #50
blueflow wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> Can't know what is a disorder is or not when you don't know whats "normal" I hesitate to wade into this discussion, but in the case of the conditions listed in the article there are a number of additional symptoms and medical difficulties that go along with the genetic variants. It's not a simple matter of confusion about sex. As for "normal": The biological systems involved are not functioning normally because a g…

Your answer is recursive and sort of leaves the question unanswered, so my reply is kinda an repetition of what i already asked:

How do we know what the normal function is? How do we know how things are intended to work? (Intended by whom?)

Re: More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

#68

Post by gruez »

sunshowers wrote: post #40
pseudosavant wrote: post #12

Very interesting. Relates to conversations I've had recently regarding trans people in sports. Turns out that conversation isn't simple, because gender is way more complex than the binary M/F options society has tried to act like it is. Between reasons like in this article, or being born intersex, etc, there are definitely people with female chromosomes who have competed in men's sports, or people with female sex org…

The important thing to recognize is that fairness is a pretty fuzzy concept and a lot of the boundary between fair and unfair is defined by particular societal norms (socially constructed, if you will). All elite athletes have biological advantages not afforded to ordinary humans like us. People like Michael Phelps and Alex Honnold are specific examples of course, but even after years of training most people cannot p…

>Now, which biological advantages are fair and which are not is determined by society. We have somehow decided that chromosomal advantages are unfair, even though people have exactly as much control over them as they do over the amount of lactic acid they produce or how their amygdala behaves.

What's the implication here, that because the distinction is totally arbitrary, that we should do away with it? What does that mean for women's sports?

Re: More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

#69

Post by 1attice »

readthenotes1 wrote: post #52
pseudosavant wrote: post #12

Very interesting. Relates to conversations I've had recently regarding trans people in sports. Turns out that conversation isn't simple, because gender is way more complex than the binary M/F options society has tried to act like it is. Between reasons like in this article, or being born intersex, etc, there are definitely people with female chromosomes who have competed in men's sports, or people with female sex org…

[flagged]

cool, cool, now you have to use heuristics to determine historic testosterone levels, or require invasive monitoring for all potential future athletes, no problems here

maybe you can put it on the blockchain /s

Re: More women than expected are genetically men (2016)

#70

Post by TinkersW »

_lvbh wrote: post #6

> “It is very upsetting for people who have grown up and lived for years believing that they are of a particular sex to suddenly discover that they are actually of the opposite sex. This can be a relief but can also be a loss. For most people it comes as a shock that upends their whole identity. Coping with this can take years,” I find this statement odd. Haven't we already established that chromosomes do not determi…

The quote is about sex--you know the thing is that is actually real, and is absolutely defined by chromosomes.
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