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At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

nytimes.com

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Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#321

Post by mbonnet »

rwmj wrote: post #59
cedws wrote: post #34

The failing is as much with the court as it is with Fujitsu. Why did they blindly accept Horizon’s data as evidence? What if the computer said the Queen stole all the money and ran off to Barbados, would they have thrown her in jail? Why was the output of a black box, which may as well have been a notebook Fujitsu could have written anything they wanted into, treated as gospel?

The actual answer to this is terrible. Courts had to trust the computer was correct. There was a common law presumption that a computer was operating correctly unless there is evidence to the contrary (and getting that evidence is basically impossible for the individuals being charged who were post office workers, not computer experts, and the source code was a trade secret). This might change, partly in response to…

> There was a common law presumption that a computer was operating correctly unless there is evidence to the contrary

This is horrifying. I presume software is working incorrectly until proven otherwise.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#322

Post by amiga386 »

jordanb wrote: post #219
hnfong wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fascinating. Do you have references for the motives/biases of the PO leadership?

My entry-point was listening to this podcast, it's pretty long but it goes into the fact that the purpose of horizon was to detect fraud and reduce shrinkage, that the leadership and their consultants were coming up with outsized estimates for the amount of fraud and using that as financial justification for the project. They also talk about postmaster's motivations for buying a franchise and how sitting behind a ret…

I haven't listened to the podcast, but I think you may be oversimplifying.

The origin of Horizon is that ICL won the tender for a project to computerise the UK's benefits payment system -- replacing giro books (like cheque books) with smart cards (like bank cards):

https://inews.co.uk/news/post-office-warned-fujitsu-horizon-...

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199899/cmselect/cmtr...

Sure, it was also expected to detect fraud, but overall it was a "modernising" project. The project failed disastrously because ICL were completely incompetent at building an accounting system, the system regularly made huge mistakes, and the incoming government scrapped it.

ICL was nonetheless still very chummy with government, as it was concieved of by 1960s British politicians who basically wanted a UK version of IBM because they didn't want Americans being in control of all the UK's computer systems. ICL used to operate mainframes and supply "computer terminals" to government and such, which is why they needed a lot of equipment from Fujitsu, which is why Fujitsu decided to buy them.

ICL/Fujitsu still kept the contract to computerize Post Office accounting more generally -- Horizon. Post Offices could literally have pen-and-paper accounting until this! Yes, the project was also meant to look for fraud and shrinkage, but at its heart it was there to modernise, centralise and reduce costs. If only it wasn't written by incompetent morons who keep winning contracts because they're sweet with government.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#323

Post by nosefrog »

octopoc wrote: post #206
marliechiller wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

whats veganism got to do with comitting suicide?

Many vegans think everyone else is evil/demonic for eating meat. “Meat is murder” etc etc. So the natural conclusion to that is, according to several vegans I know, that everyone who eats meat should be forced to either stop being a mass murderer or kill themselves. Keep in mind there was a point where I was vegan, I know several vegans, so I know what I’m talking about. They’re not shy about it either—look up That V…

I was vegan for 7 years, one of my vegan friends had the opinion that human hospitals should be banned and only animal hospitals should be allowed.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#324

Post by rwmj »

trollbridge wrote: post #232
XTXinverseXTY wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forgive my indelicate question, but why would someone buy a PO franchise?

People buy into all kinds of money-losing businesses... Edible Arrangements, Nothing Bundt Cakes, various multi-level marketing type of schemes. And yes, a lot of people are willing to go into debt to effectively pay to have a job.

Running a pub is a time-honoured way to lose money in the UK. They're essentially scams to steer the life savings of the working class into the accounts of large breweries.

Edit: A timely news article: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cvg8llxmnx7o

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#325

Post by SCdF »

ThisNameIsTaken wrote: post #43
throw0101c wrote: post #12

The four-part mini-series Mr Bates vs The Post Office is worth checking out: > A faulty IT system called Horizon, developed by Fujitsu, creates apparent cash shortfalls that cause Post Office Limited to pursue prosecutions for fraud, theft and false accounting against a number of subpostmasters across the UK. In 2009, a group of these, led by Alan Bates, forms the Justice for Subpostmasters Alliance. The prosecutions…

What is particularly striking about the scandal is the impact of the mini-series. From what I understand (as a foreigner to the UK) is that it was the mini-series that sparked national interest in the case. Without it, those involved would still be in a bureaucratic and legal nightmare, in which all institutions rejected their innocence claims, and hardly anyone would have been held accountable. See also the "Impact"…

Sort of.

We were in the middle of an election cycle. If you were paying attention you were aware of the scandal slowly grinding its way through legal slop, but most people probably weren't that clued in (as per normal).

But that mini-series threw it into the current public consciousness, and so suddenly it wasn't just the judicial system working through it but the Tories now gave a shit (briefly), because they thought showing that they care might save them (it didn't).

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#326

Post by blipvert »

cedws wrote: post #34

The failing is as much with the court as it is with Fujitsu. Why did they blindly accept Horizon’s data as evidence? What if the computer said the Queen stole all the money and ran off to Barbados, would they have thrown her in jail? Why was the output of a black box, which may as well have been a notebook Fujitsu could have written anything they wanted into, treated as gospel?

Part of the answer is that the Post Office had (has?) special legal status in that it can prosecute cases by itself - no need to present a convincing case to the CPS like the police do.

Many people were scared into pleading guilty just to avoid the upfront legal costs and the ruinous fines if contesting and found guilty (“the computer is always right”).

Often the PO knew that they didn’t have much of a case but just used their special status to bully them into submission.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#327

Post by rwmj »

arrowsmith wrote: post #226
junon wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When tabloids circumvent due process to commit slander and get away with it there should be penalties, yes.

Defamation is already illegal. People sue each other for defamation all the time - in fact UK libel law is notoriously weighted in favour of the plaintiff. If these men were defamed they can sue the tabloids and they'll probably win. GP was saying the government should do something. What more can the government do?

If they have a ton of money, which these postmasters do not.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#328

Post by hotpocket777 »

mbonnet wrote: post #320
SCdF wrote: post #157

Effectively tortured to death. One of the things that frustrates me with how ethics is taught in computer science is that we use examples like Therac 25, and people listen in horror, then their takeaway is frequently "well thank god I don't work on medical equipment". The fact that it's medical equipment is a distraction. All software can cause harm to others. All of it. You need to care about all of it.

I work on satellites that are intended for use in missile tracking. If I fail in the software, it might not "kill people", but people will die due to the failures. Though, I used to work on fighter jets and SAMs. People do die due to my work.

[flagged]

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#329

Post by carstout »

XTXinverseXTY wrote: post #228
jordanb wrote: post #191

I went on a deep dive on this scandal about a year or so ago. One thing that struck me is the class element. Basically, the Post Office leadership could not understand why someone would buy a PO franchise. It's a substantial amount of money up front, and people aren't allowed to buy multiple franchises, so every PO was an owner/operator position. Essentially people were "buying a job". The people in leadership couldn…

Forgive my indelicate question, but why would someone buy a PO franchise?

Historically it wasnt a bad thing since it was an add on to an existing shop. The general idea being that I would come in to pick up my pension/tv licence or various other things the PO used to be the source for and then spend it in the other part of the shop.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#330

Post by arh68 »

arrowsmith wrote: post #307
mkehrt wrote: post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The truth isn't defamation, by definition. This is a famously American position.

I'm not American, and we're discussing a UK news story. But I genuinely didn't know that other countries do things differently. What does defamation even mean if it doesn't include the concept of untruth?

Previously, [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40682485 (obviously, it means different things to different folks; I can't properly answer your question)

FWIW I'm only really familiar with the American usual.

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