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At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

nytimes.com

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Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#221

Post by rossant »

cman82 wrote: post #198

For an excellent in-depth look at the scandal, I recommend Nick Wallis's book The Great Post Office Scandal. I read this soon after it came out and was wondering why it hadn't caused a national uproar. It was only the miniseries that prompted the required outrage.

Yes, many scandals stay under the radar until a good book, film or series reaches millions at once. I hope the same happens with another subject close to my heart [1, 2]. A Netflix film on a related topic a few years ago already had a huge impact [3]. It focused on one case, but by the end of the movie it is clear that many others are similarly affected.

[1] https://cambridgeblog.org/2023/05/a-journey-into-the-shaken-...

[2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37650402

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Take_Care_of_Maya

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#222

Post by gnfargbl »

mystraline wrote: post #87
rwmj wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The actual answer to this is terrible. Courts had to trust the computer was correct. There was a common law presumption that a computer was operating correctly unless there is evidence to the contrary (and getting that evidence is basically impossible for the individuals being charged who were post office workers, not computer experts, and the source code was a trade secret). This might change, partly in response to…

Governments should have access to all the source of code they buy licenses to (and provided at sale), as a precondition of selling to a government. When these sorts of things happen, the source can be subpoena'd with the relevant legal tool, and reviewed appropriately. Why governments don't do this is beyond me. It greatly limits liability of gov procurement, and puts the liability on the companies selling such goods…

Governments don't do get source code for the same reason as every other customer doesn't get source code: software vendors are incentivized to refuse the request.

Why are the vendors so incentivized? Well, coming back to Fujitsu and the Post Office, the answer is that refusing to share the source was worth about a billion dollars: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cgm8lmz1xk1o

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#223

Post by jordanb »

jen20 wrote: post #204
jordanb wrote: post #191

I went on a deep dive on this scandal about a year or so ago. One thing that struck me is the class element. Basically, the Post Office leadership could not understand why someone would buy a PO franchise. It's a substantial amount of money up front, and people aren't allowed to buy multiple franchises, so every PO was an owner/operator position. Essentially people were "buying a job". The people in leadership couldn…

I suspect there's more to it in than that. I'd wager there was a solid amount of general incompetence involved at the PO "corporate" - management politically couldn't admit that their consultingware could be anything other than perfect, because they signed off on the decision to buy it, and probably on all the work orders that got them to that point. If anyone from PO management or that of the consulting firm (Fujits…

Yes at some point it turned into CYA. When the leadership started realizing that there were problems with the software they started doubling down, getting even more aggressive with prosecutions, because they were trying to hide their own fuckups.

But when the ball started rolling, as the software rolled out and was finding missing funds everywhere, you'd think a normal person would have asked "are we sure there are no bugs here?" That was never done, I believe, because the software was matching the leadership's priors.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#224

Post by jedimastert »

arrowsmith wrote: post #202
dagmx wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really wish someone had the political capital to do something about the tabloids. They’re really a detriment to society.

I don't like the tabloids either but what exactly do you propose we do? Are you sure it's a good idea to undermine the freedom of the press? A government with the power to censor the tabloids is also a government with the power to censor the news outlets that you do like. I'd be careful about opening that can of worms.

Aren't defamation laws in the UK almost shockingly restrictive? How the hell are they able to operate?

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#225

Post by silon42 »

PaulRobinson wrote: post #139
imtringued wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The emperor has no clothes. Oxford is the worlds AI Safety research hub and yet they didn't think about campaigning to overturn a law which negates their entire reason for existing?

This happened a long time before the current resurgence in AI.

Imagine how much will "machine is right and can't be changed" happen with AI.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#226

Post by arrowsmith »

junon wrote: post #210
arrowsmith wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't like the tabloids either but what exactly do you propose we do? Are you sure it's a good idea to undermine the freedom of the press? A government with the power to censor the tabloids is also a government with the power to censor the news outlets that you do like. I'd be careful about opening that can of worms.

When tabloids circumvent due process to commit slander and get away with it there should be penalties, yes.

Defamation is already illegal. People sue each other for defamation all the time - in fact UK libel law is notoriously weighted in favour of the plaintiff. If these men were defamed they can sue the tabloids and they'll probably win.

GP was saying the government should do something. What more can the government do?

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#227

Post by jedimastert »

SCdF wrote: post #157

Effectively tortured to death. One of the things that frustrates me with how ethics is taught in computer science is that we use examples like Therac 25, and people listen in horror, then their takeaway is frequently "well thank god I don't work on medical equipment". The fact that it's medical equipment is a distraction. All software can cause harm to others. All of it. You need to care about all of it.

Jesus I desperately wish real ethics classes were required for computer science degrees

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#228

Post by XTXinverseXTY »

jordanb wrote: post #191

I went on a deep dive on this scandal about a year or so ago. One thing that struck me is the class element. Basically, the Post Office leadership could not understand why someone would buy a PO franchise. It's a substantial amount of money up front, and people aren't allowed to buy multiple franchises, so every PO was an owner/operator position. Essentially people were "buying a job". The people in leadership couldn…

Forgive my indelicate question, but why would someone buy a PO franchise?

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#229

Post by bauble »

rwmj wrote: post #59
cedws wrote: post #34

The failing is as much with the court as it is with Fujitsu. Why did they blindly accept Horizon’s data as evidence? What if the computer said the Queen stole all the money and ran off to Barbados, would they have thrown her in jail? Why was the output of a black box, which may as well have been a notebook Fujitsu could have written anything they wanted into, treated as gospel?

The actual answer to this is terrible. Courts had to trust the computer was correct. There was a common law presumption that a computer was operating correctly unless there is evidence to the contrary (and getting that evidence is basically impossible for the individuals being charged who were post office workers, not computer experts, and the source code was a trade secret). This might change, partly in response to…

Relevant XKCD: https://xkcd.com/2030/

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#230

Post by tokai »

nwienert wrote: post #194
KingOfCoders wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no "deep state", just the state. Calling things "the deep state" tries to partition the state in two parts, a good one and a bad one. There is also no "deep Amazon" or "deep Meta". Amazon is Amazon, Meta is Meta and the state is the state. People working for or representing the state have their own agenda, have their cliques, have their CYA like people everywhere else. And the state as an organization priori…

There’s incredible utility to the term. It refers to people in the government with a lot of power and little public exposure, and perhaps some indication of using their power against the will of the general public, and yes there’s tons of these people, and it’s quite good to have the public generally worried about them. American political history is littered with deep state plots that turned out to be true - Iraq war…

Iraq war was definitely not the work of any deep state, if you follow your definition. It was pushed by the president and his government, not faceless bureaucrats.
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