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At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

nytimes.com

181–190 of 585 posts

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#181

To the NY Times: please don't say they died by suicide. The passive voice makes it sound like some act of God, something regrettable but unavoidable that just somehow happened. It's important not to sugarcoat what happened: the postmasters killed themselves because the British state was imprisoning them for crimes they didn't commit, based on evidence from a buggy financial accounting system. Don't blur the details o…

It's a surprising take to blame developers and software development for what is a prime example of corruption within the UK establishment, an uncaring and incompetent court system, and the lying senior managers of the UK Post Office. The faults were known and this is a case of cover-up.

Software development was merely an accessory to the crime in this case.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#182
post #140

This was depressing to read. Failures at so many levels. 1. Immediately after Horizon was rolled out, issues were reported. But ignored 2. Prosecutors didn't bother to verify if there is another explanation before accusing thousands of people of stealing? Isn't it common sense to pause for a second and think, "could we please double check the evidence? how can thousands of postal workers suddenly turn into thieves?"…

I really wish someone had the political capital to do something about the tabloids. They’re really a detriment to society.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#183

What is amazing is the engineers the Fujitsu employed would testify in court against some of the subpostmasters saying "there were no faults" where in unearthed evidence of their support logs they could be clearly acknowledging bugs that could create false accounts, manually updating records and audit logs to balance it out (and also sometimes screwing that up). See Nick Wallis' coverage: * https://www.postofficetria…

I’m really surprised the post office didn’t do more of a job to frame it as the “Fujitsu Scandal”. They could have made the public think it was a foreign Japanese issue

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#184
post #179

To the NY Times: please don't say they died by suicide. The passive voice makes it sound like some act of God, something regrettable but unavoidable that just somehow happened. It's important not to sugarcoat what happened: the postmasters killed themselves because the British state was imprisoning them for crimes they didn't commit, based on evidence from a buggy financial accounting system. Don't blur the details o…

Well said. I really wish we had a better word for someone who is bullied into suicide. It’s tantamount to manslaughter imho. Recently, a snark/bullying community on Reddit resulted in the suicide of their target (a woman responsible for rescuing foxes). That kind of targeting and bullying is horrific for any individual to process, let alone people who don’t have the press teams and training that celebrities do.

This sets a bad precedent. There is a wide gamut of emotional resilience in people. What is a funny insult to one person, can be rope-fuel to another.

Would you want to be called that if you make a light jab at a middle aged bald guy?

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#185

As someone who attempted suicide almost ten years ago, I'm disheartened by how cold-hearted the comments on this article are. Accusations of certain wording being "woke" or "PC" and completely ignoring the substance of the article itself, as if the wording were the tragedy here. If we must have this discussion, I stopped using the phrase "committed suicide" when I found out it was a relic of when it was illegal and s…

I think the discussion is that “driven to suicide” would be a more appropriate term. Their deaths were not coincidental or incidental. It is an attempt to acknowledge that their act was the result of the actions of the post office and others.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes “committed suicide” any more plain or honest than “died by suicide”?

I don't have a big issue with that particular phrase itself. Although the passive voice is designed to conceal or obscure the actor, which doesn't accomplish anything here. Attributing a suicide to anyone other than the actor starts to appear oxymoronic very quickly. Yes life is complex and whatnot -- that's a given, we don't need a reminder every time anything happens. But really it's the transparent and ham-handed…

> Attributing a suicide to anyone other than the actor starts to appear oxymoronic very quickly.

No one is an island. We’re all deeply intertwined/interconnected. We’re the sum total of our lived experiences and without a doubt some have lived far more challenging lives than others and are influenced by factors that would lead just about anyone down a dark path.

The grief felt by those left behind is the result of that aforementioned interconnectedness.

Getting back to the quoted bit, isn’t this a bit like saying “attributing grief to anyone other than the person experiencing it is oxymoronic”?

My point is not to diminish the impact on those left behind in any way. Clearly this is a traumatic event that causes excruciating grief.

But I think we also need to be honest about the environmental factors that lead to suicide. Hopelessness is one of the large causes. If there are systemic reasons causing people to feel hopeless, and if those systemic problems could theoretically be changed/improved, and such improvement lowered the suicide rate, there’s a strong case to be made that the systemic factors share the responsibility.

> Yes life is complex and whatnot -- that's a given, we don't need a reminder every time anything happens.

I don’t think it’s a given. Clearly some lives are far more complicated than others. There exists a subset of people for whom that complication will become an insurmountable problem. Often those people have been traumatized, or have never learned the tools necessary to work through their feelings.

Some people are bullied into killing themselves. Should that be attributed wholly to the person who was bullied?

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#187
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes “committed suicide” any more plain or honest than “died by suicide”?

It assigns agency to the person who died. Think about it this way: I have relative who is vegan, so she has been trying to convince me to kill myself for many years now. I can still choose whether I do it though, and obviously I chose not to so far, although during COVID I didn’t have much other social interaction, so I nearly went through with it. I had agency throughout though. I’m not dead because I chose not to g…

whats veganism got to do with comitting suicide?

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So long as the jury understands this, it's all fine. If you're on trial for doing X and your jury is told by a prosecution witness "mrkramer did X" and under cross they admit that's based on computer records which are often bogus, inconsistent, total nonsense, it doesn't take the world's best defence lawyer to secure an "innocent" verdict. That's not a fun experience, but it probably won't drive you to suicide. One o…

It's worse than that - in UK law you cannot question the evidence produced by a computer unless you can prove the computer is not operating correctly - it's an inversion of the normal burden of proof. They've started the process of thinking about if that law makes sense given this case: https://www.gov.uk/government/calls-for-evidence/use-of-evid...

A juror can, and should IMHO, however consider that evidence based entirely upon computer records may potentially be erroneous and therefore unable to secure proof 'beyond a reasonable doubt'. If I were a juror, I'd default to non-guilty if a case were based entirely upon the results of an algorithm or computerised records because they introduce doubt.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#189

Suicide is a verb and result by itself. Would the author also say “he died by murder”?

Language evolves, like it or not. In 2025 English, suicide is most commonly a noun.

There’s probably a near future where “unalived” becomes an unironic and accepted descriptor.

Re: At Least 13 People Died by Suicide Amid U.K. Post Office Scandal, Report Says

#190
I became aware of this fraud involving Fujitsu/Horizon and the UK Post Office at the beginning of this year because I watched the movie 'Mr. Bates vs The Post Office.' I can recommend it.

It's sad to see all these people losing their livelihoods and beliefs. And it gives me hope to see how they fought back and started to help each other over the decades.

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