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Yes, India is a police state - Christopher Soghoian

blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com

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Re: Yes, India is a police state - Christopher Soghoian

#81

Post by [deleted] »

irahul wrote: post #76
eshvk wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am confused: Are you actually saying that asserting one's Indian heritage means that one has to accept all the shit that happens due to an incompetent completely broken system?

> one's Indian heritage Depending on your perception, either there is no such thing as India heritage or it's so broad that it's bordering on being indistinguishable from non-Indian heritage. 1. We are talking about a country of over a billion people who are descendants of different races. Aryans, dravidians(I believe aryan invasion is under dispute but there are more people leaning towards it). I don't know what rac…

[deleted]

Re: Yes, India is a police state - Christopher Soghoian

#82

Post by fakeer »

rheide wrote: post #30

Great website.. As soon as I open it a javascript popup shows saying "ReferenceError: FB not defined".

It's probably the most famous Indian newspaper. Specializes in bringing page 3 to page 1. Suppose one of our sports star (read cricket star) does good and there's some serious political or militnacy related event, it knows how to skip the other news. But you know what the shameful part is? People still prefer it over other newspapers.

PS. Not commenting on article but the quality of newspaper :-)

Re: Yes, India is a police state - Christopher Soghoian

#83

Post by intended »

kamaal wrote: post #51
zakshay wrote: post #8

My experiences are unlike the blog says. You've got to know your city and where the services, things are not that organized ofcourse. Also, India is big on Human powered telephony search query based services(see 1). It really really works here. For example, you could ask who runs the nearest color copier via phone, and the answer would be SMSed to you. Also another thing which is unique in India, is the home delivery…

This is nothing new. For a while talking in English in India was considered a sign of being forward and modern. Parents used to take pride that their folks talk in English, even if all they do is swear. It used to look odd, strange and hilarious at times. And you see this India bashing not just in blog posts and news. But also in Novels and books, giving a bad perspective of India to a already troubled-by-outsourcing…

These responses are yet worse because they just continue a cycle of non information and angst forever.

For those NRIs who complain I can present to you the NRIs who try and recreate India abroad and think everything was better in the motherland.

They force their children to learn to be "Indian" act Indian, and then get married to an Indian.

It's called the perfect minority syndrome if I am not mistaken.

Some moan, others wax eloquent. Neither should get to you. Only valid criticism matter, and lessons we can apply here.

Re: Yes, India is a police state - Christopher Soghoian

#84

Post by irahul »

zakshay wrote: post #8

My experiences are unlike the blog says. You've got to know your city and where the services, things are not that organized ofcourse. Also, India is big on Human powered telephony search query based services(see 1). It really really works here. For example, you could ask who runs the nearest color copier via phone, and the answer would be SMSed to you. Also another thing which is unique in India, is the home delivery…

> Its a pity that blog posts these get a lot of attention because of their extreme nature.

Pointing out that you need to show your id to use a cyber cafe or other things in the article are neither false nor extreme.

Re: Yes, India is a police state - Christopher Soghoian

#85

Post by irahul »

intended wrote: post #80
irahul wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> one's Indian heritage Depending on your perception, either there is no such thing as India heritage or it's so broad that it's bordering on being indistinguishable from non-Indian heritage. 1. We are talking about a country of over a billion people who are descendants of different races. Aryans, dravidians(I believe aryan invasion is under dispute but there are more people leaning towards it). I don't know what rac…

Right now? Helping out country men from the north east, and surviving the daily tribulations of India with stoicism, and the ability to be open to all castes, creeds and colors The one thing that united most of India was mysticism and the belief that we are one under some god. You can experiment with that as a start. It's what bound the Sufis, Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism and several other religions during the best of…

> Right now? Helping out country men from the north east, and surviving the daily tribulations of India with stoicism, and the ability to be open to all castes, creeds and colors

The discussion started from a post talking about Indian heritage, and the things which you listed(substitute people from north east with just people) are basic qualities expected in a decent human being - there is nothing uniquely Indian or heritage about it.

> The one thing that united most of India was mysticism and the belief that we are one under some god.

More often than not, I don't see a united India, which doesn't bother me much as long as people treat other people as human beings, and not some abstract entity(viz. Hindu, North eastern, Tamil etc). Countries are imaginary boundaries, intentionally and/or unintentionally created for various reasons(ease of administration among others).

Mysticism is something I never subscribed to. I was indifferent to religion, miracles, rituals from a very young age. I believed a relation between me and god is personal, and priests, temples, rituals have no business being there. Eventually, I became an atheist. Granted not many people are atheists(in India, or any other part of the world), but people not into mysticism is very common. I am pointing this out as you were listing it as something which is inherently Indian, and I am saying it isn't and there isn't an authority which decides the Indian heritage.

> You can experiment with that as a start.

Experiment with what? Mysticism? Show me, I will verify. If it works, at that point, it isn't mysterious any more. If it doesn't, it is just imagination gone wild.

> It's what bound the Sufis, Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism and several other religions during the best of our times.

If that is the binding factor for you, good for you. For me, I don't give a shit which part of world you are from, what gods you worship, what color your skin is, what language you speak etc etc. You will get basic "one human being to another" respect, followed by "earned respect". If I just met you, you get the basic respect and empathy. If you are a superb programmer, good doctor, good athlete, good human being... you earn my respect. If you are an asshole(homophobe, sexist, xenophobic, wife beater...), you lose my respect. My system works for me and I don't see a reason to switch to Indian or American or Martian system.

Re: Yes, India is a police state - Christopher Soghoian

#86

Post by ashayh »

kamaal wrote: post #51
zakshay wrote: post #8

My experiences are unlike the blog says. You've got to know your city and where the services, things are not that organized ofcourse. Also, India is big on Human powered telephony search query based services(see 1). It really really works here. For example, you could ask who runs the nearest color copier via phone, and the answer would be SMSed to you. Also another thing which is unique in India, is the home delivery…

This is nothing new. For a while talking in English in India was considered a sign of being forward and modern. Parents used to take pride that their folks talk in English, even if all they do is swear. It used to look odd, strange and hilarious at times. And you see this India bashing not just in blog posts and news. But also in Novels and books, giving a bad perspective of India to a already troubled-by-outsourcing…

"But justifying your personal ambitions by talking low of your country and country men to make your ambitions not look greedy is really a cheap way of doing it."

Pretty sure the reason why anyone "talks low", is because they are stating facts.

Re: Yes, India is a police state - Christopher Soghoian

#87

Post by arjunnarayan »

irahul wrote: post #79
chimeracoder wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reference will be lost on most HN readers, so I'll explain for everyone else. In many situations, you are better off being white and American than a PIO (this is a very commonly used term). You will get better treatment and are less likely to be cheated by a price-gouging merchant or bureaucrat. Mendicants are much more aggressive with PIOs. Merchants are similarly more aggressive. I've had one tell me that it w…

> I'm very careful to adjust my clothing, hairstyle, etc. That is interesting. Did you spend majority of your childhood elsewhere, because considering the diversity of India, it's pretty hard to tell.

I've been out of India for 6 years now. I instantly stand out on the streets of Bangalore as distinctly "NRI" (Non Resident Indian, and apparently a term that means that I cannot criticize anything about India ever, especially on messageboards like hacker news [see argument in the thread above between some poor hapless PIO and resident Indians].)

Re: Yes, India is a police state - Christopher Soghoian

#88

Post by dr_ »

kamaal wrote: post #50
dr_ wrote: post #29

A few years ago I had traveled to India, and had plans to leave the country for a week then return. Big mistake. I was advised to go to the Indian embassy in the destination country to get permission to come back. I did so, they took my passport and told me to come back the following day, hence delaying my travels within that country by a day. I returned to India ok. When i was leaving India I was asked why I had not…

>>I am Indian mind you, although born and raised in the US. I will not be returning to India ever again. Sad, I am Indian too. Born, raised in India, Bangalore. The process you describe is something that every 'Indian' here goes through. I was a little taken aback when you said 'I am Indian mind you'. I think you refer to the legal status. Because although I agree that its painful- Being an Indian you experienced wha…

Actually, kamaal, you are mistaken. This 2 month travel rule, in 2009-2010 when I went, applied only to non-Indian passport holders, it did not apply if you were an Indian citizen. I think the only other exemption was for OCI card holders.

Re: Yes, India is a police state - Christopher Soghoian

#89

Post by jonathanyc »

vishaldpatel wrote: post #73
smutticus wrote: post #45

India is not a police state. India is a dysfunctional state only made functional through continuous petty bribery. Historically police states like Nazi Germany or Mao's China operated by being well organized at all levels of society. India is absolutely not well organized at all levels of society. Instead India seems optimized for the petty bribe seeking bureaucrat. It's not the all knowing police state. It's the dis…

Why didn't your employer get it done for you? If it was a big firm then they'd have someone who knows their way around the system to get things like this done efficiently.

First, he never said it was a big firm, second, I don't see how your comment is at all relevant (aside from being tremendous fodder for cynics).

Re: Yes, India is a police state - Christopher Soghoian

#90

Post by kamaal »

eshvk wrote: post #70
kamaal wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>I am Indian mind you, although born and raised in the US. I will not be returning to India ever again. Sad, I am Indian too. Born, raised in India, Bangalore. The process you describe is something that every 'Indian' here goes through. I was a little taken aback when you said 'I am Indian mind you'. I think you refer to the legal status. Because although I agree that its painful- Being an Indian you experienced wha…

I am confused: Are you actually saying that asserting one's Indian heritage means that one has to accept all the shit that happens due to an incompetent completely broken system?

I am only saying that everyone goes through it, if you feel that you are some way special and that normal things as usual don't apply to you then something is wrong with you not everybody else. Because you are the exception to the rule.

Bad roads, garbage on the roads, crowds in buses/bus stops, big queues, bribe, traffic jams, corruption, bureaucracy etc applies to nearly every Indian.

If you feel something about it, do something about it. But saying that you won't come back because things are horrible and there are somewhat better in some promised land then you seriously being to question what they person actually wanted a better India or 'any' better country in general, which is ready built and tailored to their comfort where they can go back settle down 'now'.

I am not saying either is good or bad. But be straight about it.

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