Live data from Hacker News

Yes, India is a police state - Christopher Soghoian

blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.com

61–70 of 107 posts

Re: Yes, India is a police state - Christopher Soghoian

#61
post #42

I would disagree. India is not a police state. India is a bureaucratic state. These regulations are not meant to frighten or intimidate people. As the article points out, they're so ineffectual as to be laughable. Police states tend to be quite a bit more brutal than that. No, all of these regulations, permits and rules are classic hallmark of bureaucratic empire building. All those Internet cafés now need to be insp…

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/jan/08/kishwar-desai-he... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irom_Sharmila

For those who don't know the back ground context behind these links.

The reason she is protesting is a law called Army Special Powers Act: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_Forces_%28Special_Powers%...

Why the law was enforced in her region etc is a huge history and is well beyond the scope of a HN comment.

Re: Yes, India is a police state - Christopher Soghoian

#63

India is not a police state. India is a dysfunctional state only made functional through continuous petty bribery. Historically police states like Nazi Germany or Mao's China operated by being well organized at all levels of society. India is absolutely not well organized at all levels of society. Instead India seems optimized for the petty bribe seeking bureaucrat. It's not the all knowing police state. It's the dis…

IT IS AMERICA THAT IS THE POLICE STATE. BIG BROTHER.

http://boingboing.net/2012/08/28/how-police-can-obtain-your-...

http://www.bgr.com/2012/08/27/u-s-government-domestic-survei...

Re: Yes, India is a police state - Christopher Soghoian

#64
We been called many names but never a police state.His cry is all about providing id. One 9/11 and the government started stripping people and entering your bed rooms.In India, the average ratio of a police to citizens is around 1:200. This is from major cities. When you go rural, the ratio will shrink further. Considering the number of terrorist attacks we have and population density, ids are the bare minimum preventive measure we have.For Indians, the accepted id can be any one of voter id, driving license, atm card with photo, ration card, passport and college id. Even my son's play school id was accepted in air port. We usually keep photo copies of one of the above.

I am surprised to see crap like this got many points. What's next? something related to Jersey shore?

Re: Yes, India is a police state - Christopher Soghoian

#65
post #51
post #8

My experiences are unlike the blog says. You've got to know your city and where the services, things are not that organized ofcourse. Also, India is big on Human powered telephony search query based services(see 1). It really really works here. For example, you could ask who runs the nearest color copier via phone, and the answer would be SMSed to you. Also another thing which is unique in India, is the home delivery…

This is nothing new. For a while talking in English in India was considered a sign of being forward and modern. Parents used to take pride that their folks talk in English, even if all they do is swear. It used to look odd, strange and hilarious at times. And you see this India bashing not just in blog posts and news. But also in Novels and books, giving a bad perspective of India to a already troubled-by-outsourcing…

[deleted]

Re: Yes, India is a police state - Christopher Soghoian

#66

I would disagree. India is not a police state. India is a bureaucratic state. These regulations are not meant to frighten or intimidate people. As the article points out, they're so ineffectual as to be laughable. Police states tend to be quite a bit more brutal than that. No, all of these regulations, permits and rules are classic hallmark of bureaucratic empire building. All those Internet cafés now need to be insp…

> India is not a police state. India is a bureaucratic state.

Agreed - I nearly laughed when I read this title. One could construct a more convincing argument that India is an anarchic state (at least, anarchic in the Snow Crash sense - the government 'exists', but it's not central, and its authority is all but nonexistent. A 'police state' with effectively no authority or power is hardly a police state, at least the way we usually use the term). Obviously India is neither of the above, but you get my point.

Just a few months ago, there was an electrical fire in our garage (in India). Thankfully the private security guard for the house next door was able to convince the private construction workers down the street to put it out, because the fire department took almost an hour to get there. Why? They couldn't figure out where we were, even when given our address, and even after contacting the local police. (The police are a completely separate department, and there is no real equivalent of 911).

Police states may be bad, but how much do you really fear a so-called 'police state' that isn't even capable of locating its citizens when they comply, let alone identifying the ones who don't? India is a very large country, and it's very easy to slip through the cracks if you need to... and sometimes even when you try your best not to[2]!

And this experience will be very different depending on which city/state you're in, which if anything underlines how India is not a police state - it's not centralized or organized enough to be one.

But the second part of your point is nothing new - in fact, this is a dramatic step forwards from the early License Raj[1] days, IMHO.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Licence_Raj

[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uttar_Pradesh_Association_of_De...

Re: Yes, India is a police state - Christopher Soghoian

#67
post #51
post #8

My experiences are unlike the blog says. You've got to know your city and where the services, things are not that organized ofcourse. Also, India is big on Human powered telephony search query based services(see 1). It really really works here. For example, you could ask who runs the nearest color copier via phone, and the answer would be SMSed to you. Also another thing which is unique in India, is the home delivery…

This is nothing new. For a while talking in English in India was considered a sign of being forward and modern. Parents used to take pride that their folks talk in English, even if all they do is swear. It used to look odd, strange and hilarious at times. And you see this India bashing not just in blog posts and news. But also in Novels and books, giving a bad perspective of India to a already troubled-by-outsourcing…

But these things are problems and need to be fixed. If you are the right kind of Indian, NRI, or foreigner you'd be fleeced of money, time, and happiness, and you'd get the hell out of the situation as soon as you can. If you are, say Muslim or some "wrong" caste/community in the wrong place, say good bye to any sense of dignity or sense of justice/faith in the system as random bureaucrats/cops or even powerful individuals harass you. These are real, important problems that need to be fixed. They won't be fixed by ignoring them.

Yesterday or so, a passenger was actually beheaded in a crowded train in W Bengal. Nobody was apprehended. In every town/village/city you will find people being harassed by babus, and victims of extortion or violence by police and/or criminals.

Re: Yes, India is a police state - Christopher Soghoian

#68
post #63

India is not a police state. India is a dysfunctional state only made functional through continuous petty bribery. Historically police states like Nazi Germany or Mao's China operated by being well organized at all levels of society. India is absolutely not well organized at all levels of society. Instead India seems optimized for the petty bribe seeking bureaucrat. It's not the all knowing police state. It's the dis…

IT IS AMERICA THAT IS THE POLICE STATE. BIG BROTHER. http://boingboing.net/2012/08/28/how-police-can-obtain-your-... http://www.bgr.com/2012/08/27/u-s-government-domestic-survei...

[deleted]

Re: Yes, India is a police state - Christopher Soghoian

#69
post #55
post #29

A few years ago I had traveled to India, and had plans to leave the country for a week then return. Big mistake. I was advised to go to the Indian embassy in the destination country to get permission to come back. I did so, they took my passport and told me to come back the following day, hence delaying my travels within that country by a day. I returned to India ok. When i was leaving India I was asked why I had not…

> "Indian mind you, although born and raised in the US". You are not an Indian, you are a "Person of Indian Origin". Big difference.

This reference will be lost on most HN readers, so I'll explain for everyone else.

In many situations, you are better off being white and American than a PIO (this is a very commonly used term). You will get better treatment and are less likely to be cheated by a price-gouging merchant or bureaucrat.

Mendicants are much more aggressive with PIOs. Merchants are similarly more aggressive. I've had one tell me that it would cost $20 to tell me how to get to the security line[1]. When I shook my head and walked away, he yelled at me, 'That's nothing to you - you're rich!'. (He was basing that statement entirely on the fact that I was a PIO, nothing else).

On the other hand, Indians pride themselves on being hospitable as a culture, so they would never treat a white person (a clear foreigner) this way.

When I go to India, I'm very careful to adjust my clothing, hairstyle, etc. so that it's less obvious that I'm a foreigner (trust me, they know). It's better to travel with a local (you probably have relatives there) and not to speak at all - even if your accent is flawless, your vernacular and fluidity is probably subtly off just enough to tip them off. Or, speak in a language that is native to another region within India (so that people think you're traveling from another region, and it will be harder for them to notice your accent).

[1] It's not unusual to have private citizens step in and fill the gaps where there aren't enough public employees to do the job at hand, so yes, this was more or less this guy's entire job. Other people charge to 'watch over' your car in public street parking, etc.

Re: Yes, India is a police state - Christopher Soghoian

#70
post #50
post #29

A few years ago I had traveled to India, and had plans to leave the country for a week then return. Big mistake. I was advised to go to the Indian embassy in the destination country to get permission to come back. I did so, they took my passport and told me to come back the following day, hence delaying my travels within that country by a day. I returned to India ok. When i was leaving India I was asked why I had not…

>>I am Indian mind you, although born and raised in the US. I will not be returning to India ever again. Sad, I am Indian too. Born, raised in India, Bangalore. The process you describe is something that every 'Indian' here goes through. I was a little taken aback when you said 'I am Indian mind you'. I think you refer to the legal status. Because although I agree that its painful- Being an Indian you experienced wha…

I am confused: Are you actually saying that asserting one's Indian heritage means that one has to accept all the shit that happens due to an incompetent completely broken system?
Post reply on HN