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Framework Laptop 12 review

arstechnica.com

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Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#111

Post by dale_huevo »

stavros wrote: post #43
dale_huevo wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. "Repairable" is a bit of a fool's errand. It really hinges on availability of spare parts, supply chain, etc. They will never sell enough of this niche product to nerds to make that a long-term reality. An old MBP is far more repairable because so many were made there will never be a shortage of parts on eBay. While an emphasis on repairability is noble, the false prophet of brick-like pluggable USB modules ain'…

I'm far more likely to buy a RAM stick off the shelf and install it in a Framework than I am to desolder the RAM from a Macbook. Similarly, if I spill orange juice on a Framework, I can just buy a new keyboard and install it in a minute. If it were a Macbook, I'd probably throw away the whole thing, since I'd have to disassemble all of it to get to the keyboard, and it would take me hours, if I even managed to not br…

But are you really going to repair it?

Or, upon spilling the juice, realize you can get a Surface Go on sale at Walmart (which this seems to be a clone of) for a bit more than a replacement keyboard and your time (which is way more than a minute) and toss it in the trash anyway.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#112

Post by MostlyStable »

masklinn wrote: post #76
theodric wrote: post #52

> "A sturdy, thoughtful, cute design that just can't compete in its price range." People will pay untold thousands for a Mac, but God forbid when a PC manufacturer charges more than $599 for a laptop. If you're whining about the price, Framework isn't made for you. Go buy that Acer that you really want. The Framework is Sam Vimes' expensive boots that are made to last[1], and I've happily paid in full to get a pair.…

> People will pay untold thousands for a Mac, but God forbid when a PC manufacturer charges more than $599 for a laptop. The article compares the FL12 to laptops of the same price range, including other framework laptops to note that it falls short. The FL12 has worse performances and battery life than an M1 Air, for more than an M4. The point of the article is that the 12 should either be a lot less expensive or it…

The core philosophy of Framework is repairability and modularity. Yes, you are paying extra for those things, and so people who do not value them, should probably not buy Framework. These comments are full of the old cliche of judging a fish in a tree climbing contest.

Repairabilty and modularity come with tradeoffs. Not everyone is going to value those tradeoffs and therefore shouldn't buy a laptop where those are the priority. But some people do value those things, and telling them to "get a MacBook" is just silly.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#113

Post by lukan »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #94
mhitza wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Is it unreasonable to think Framework should be able to make a laptop competitive with the 5 years old MacBook Air M1? Kind of unreasonable. I mean which Intel or AMD cpu can be run fanless and perform well? On the topic of displays, my understanding is that they "kind of use what they can get". That's how there can be a 13 display with rounded corners in a straight edge case. What you're asking are the things I'm…

It isn't the chip which determines whether it's fanless. Basically every modern chip supports power capping and then the power cap is determined by how much heat the machine can dissipate. What that really determines is multi-thread performance. Fanless laptop that can dissipate the power of one core? No problem. Fanless laptop that can dissipate the power of all the cores? For that you have to lower the clock speed…

"The cost/benefit ratio of adding a fan is extremely attractive."

Depends on your metric. A fan makes noise, attracts dirt that needs cleaning, needs more space ...

I really love my fanless devices, even though they never will reach the speed of activly cooled ones.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#114

Post by benoau »

criddell wrote: post #14

Is it unreasonable to think Framework should be able to make a laptop competitive with the 5 years old MacBook Air M1? I get that Framework focuses on making repairable machines, but does that prevent them from making a fanless, hi dpi, good performing, long battery life machine? I wouldn’t expect parity with an M4 machine, but it doesn’t seem unreasonable to think they should be competitive with the much older M1. I…

They don't make the CPU or the hardware.

And M1 laptops are what about three years from the vintage list? They'll be e-waste at the end of this decade even while other laptops fail to match it.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#115

Post by moffkalast »

libraryatnight wrote: post #36
adityamwagh wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess that’s just the cost you have to pay for repairability and extension.

I've been using my framework 13 for a while now and it's been a great laptop - part of what pushed me over was their mission of making devices lives longer, my hope is and was that maybe the vote of confidence they survive long enough to build up to a model the Apple fans here would want or at least not complain about.

How has the build quality stood up so far? My concern with these has always been that laptops do generally get banged up a bit when travelling around, and if half of it is snap fit and designed to detach instead of being all glued together like typically, then it has a higher likelihood of falling apart when you really don't want it to.

Might still be worth it if they keep producing spare parts for a decade or more, every single time my laptop's battery goes dead it's a after the manufacturer has stopped production of that model entirely and it becomes impossible to buy a new one lol.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#116

Post by throawayonthe »

mananaysiempre wrote: post #107
Lammy wrote: post #37

I really love the lavender — VAIO-core! I do wish I could get the other modules in lavender too, but I understand why they wouldn't want to fractally-complicate their stock keeping for those items. > the Laptop 12 can only fit a single DDR5 RAM slot, which reduces memory bandwidth and limits your RAM capacity to 48GB According to this post from a Framework team member, a single 64GB SODIMM will work too and just didn…

> a single 64GB SODIMM will work too Wait, are 64GB DDR5 SODIMMs finally out? I’ve been monitoring that for ages but almost lost hope.

seems so!

https://pcpartpicker.com/products/memory/#ff=ddr5_sodimm&Z=6...

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#117

Post by sixothree »

criddell wrote: post #66
encom wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FrameWork is not openly hostile towards right-to-repair, and do not actively sabotage repair efforts. Try calling Apple and ask for spare parts or circuit diagrams. Anything you find is either leaked, cloned/copied or trash-picked. It barely qualifies as spare parts.

They don't have circuit diagrams, but they do sell some replacement parts and do have repair manuals online that are geared towards supported repairs. https://support.apple.com/en-us/122003

Wow. The process to replace a keyboard is pretty much insane.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#118

Post by moffkalast »

WillAdams wrote: post #6

As much as I like the ideals Framework is espousing, I'm seriously considering just making a folding shell for a Raspberry Pi 5 (maybe Pi 500) and a second gen Wacom One 13 (stylus w/ touch screen) and a battery.

Just saw a kickstarter for something like that recently, a laptop built around a CM 5 with even GPIO broken out. Argon 40 something.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#119

Post by femiagbabiaka »

lukan wrote: post #53
femiagbabiaka wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Competitive along which lines? Performance, yes, impossible. Battery life? Yes, impossible. Anything else? Definitely!

Hm, aside from it working reliable, performance and battery are my top priority, though.

IMO the Desktop is their real "killer app." Apple comes nowhere close to competing with it on a price/performance perspective.

Re: Framework Laptop 12 review

#120

Post by AnthonyMouse »

solardev wrote: post #104
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't the chip which determines whether it's fanless. Basically every modern chip supports power capping and then the power cap is determined by how much heat the machine can dissipate. What that really determines is multi-thread performance. Fanless laptop that can dissipate the power of one core? No problem. Fanless laptop that can dissipate the power of all the cores? For that you have to lower the clock speed…

Doesn't this miss differences between CPUs in their per-core efficiency?

The per-core efficiency of Apple and AMD CPUs on the same process node is pretty much identical. This has become harder to directly compare because they're now using alternate process nodes from one another, but have a look at this chart for example:

https://www.cpu-monkey.com/en/cpu_benchmark-cpu_performance_...

What do we see at the top of this chart? TSMC 3nm (M3/M4), followed by TSMC 4nm (Ryzen 7000U/8000U), TSMC 5nm (M1/M2), TSMC 5nm/6nm mixed (Ryzen 7000H), and then finally we find something made on an Intel process node instead of TSMC.

The efficiency has more to do with the process node than which architecture it is.

It's too bad they don't have Epyc on that chart. Epyc 9845 is on TSMC N3E and that thing is running cores at a >2GHz base clock at less than 2.5W per core.

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