Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#271

Post by chairsofter » Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 4:44 AM UTC

pooriaazimi wrote: post #218

cageface wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple has done a good job of persuading people that this case was about protecting innovation and about Samsung's specific alleged infringements of their patents. But this is nothing more than a smoke screen for their ongoing proxy war on Android. They've refused to compete with Android on price, features, and form factors and the market has punished them for it. Expect more attacks on Android seeking ridiculous dama…

> the market has punished [Apple] for it You're serious? They take 73% of the profit in smartphone market, with Samsung at the second place (26%) and HTC, third (1%), their stock is booming, they have more money in the bank than all of their competitors combined (they can buy Samsung, HTC and Dell and shut them down and still have a few billion dollars left). I'd call that reward, not punishment. http://www.asymco.co…

This is what I don't get: people applaud Apple for their massive profit margins when in reality it just shows how they're screwing the consumer. Does nobody care about the betterment of the general public -us!?- around here? By buying products with huge profit margins you're spending money on features that you're not getting. And THAT is why I refuse to buy Apple products.

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#272

Post by cageface » Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 4:48 AM UTC

Anechoic wrote: post #252

cageface wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think Apple is here to stay but I don't see how they can sustain their phenomenal profit levels if their market share keeps slipping unless they keep winning in the courts. What I'd like to see is a healthy market with two or three real competitors. It's much better for consumers and developers than another decade of monoculture protected by patent minefields.

What I'd like to see is a healthy market with two or three real competitors. As would I, although I would like that market to offer real choice, and not just one first-mover and 1-2 copycats. Microsoft, Palm and Nokia managed to figure out how to make a touchscreen phone that isn't a warmed-over iPhone, I hope this provides the push for Samsung to do the same.

I deeply distrust MS as a company but I agree they deserve some credit for striking off in their own direction. I don't think Android is as similar to iOS as many claim but I would like to see more experiments as bold as WP8 in this space.

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#273

Post by dkrich » Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 4:50 AM UTC

josephlord wrote: post #155

programminggeek wrote: post #10

This is both unsurprising and somewhat meaningless as there will be an appeals process that will last for months and possibly years. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see that Samsung made their products to look like Apple products. They changed their icon styles and other UI elements away from Android standards to match the Apple style. Some of the things Apple invented and patented on like pinch to zoom an…

If Samsung get away without an injunction (decided by the judge I think) then just paying and ending the issue and embarrassing press may be the wise course. It is only a billion dollars which Samsung can definitely afford. It could be seen as a cost of business and particularly the cost of becoming the number 2 smartphone manufacturer in the world and the only one really able to put products at the same price as App…

Interesting, because I see this from exactly the opposite side. Apple hardly needs a billion dollars, but I don't think this does anything to strengthen their image or their power in the marketplace, but I do believe it emboldens people who already dislike Apple, and begins to alert people who do that Apple doesn't put innovation and consumers first. That is to say they are no longer viewed as a company that out-innovates everyone else, but rather one that wants to hoard the mobile market. I think consumers are pretty sharp and realize this. I love Apple products, but I sure as hell don't want them limiting my choice when I go to buy a new phone.

Lest we forget that Microsoft was getting sued under the antitrust act just fifteen or so years ago. At that time, Apple was a joke and people who used MS software regularly began to resent them. How silly that seems now that they are relegated to owning only the shitty, bloatware enterprise productivity market.

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#274

Post by kamechan » Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 4:51 AM UTC

benihana wrote: post #258

cageface wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple has done a good job of persuading people that this case was about protecting innovation and about Samsung's specific alleged infringements of their patents. But this is nothing more than a smoke screen for their ongoing proxy war on Android. They've refused to compete with Android on price, features, and form factors and the market has punished them for it. Expect more attacks on Android seeking ridiculous dama…

> They've refused to compete with Android on price, features, and form factors and the market has punished them for it. In what universe did the market punish them? Apple has shipped 250 million phones and made 150 billion dollars in revenue in the five years since the iPhone shipped[1]. Each iPhone version has sold more than every other version combined [2]. [1] http://techcrunch.com/2012/06/27/strategy-analytics-ap…

In the global market where android now has 60 something percent market share and iPhones have 18.

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#275

Post by magicalist » Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 4:52 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #254

cooldeal wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Looking at only the earnings reports and comparing profits is meaningless. If you follow the Gruber link it shows that Amazon's net profit is only $7M. That does not mean Amazon is having trouble making any money. It's that it's costs of expanding are swallowing the profits. Apple has a ton of cash in the bank lying around because they don't see a need for using it. Directly comparing the numbers makes no sense whats…

You're talking about John Gruber. I'm just talking about profit. Obviously, companies routinely defer profitability. Is that what you think Samsung, or any other Android vendor for that matter, is doing? I don't. Comparing the iPhone business with Amazon is an apples/oranges comparison. Comparing Samsung's Android business with the iPhone isn't. Like Gruber, don't like Gruber, I don't care. But let's not introduce th…

If profit is the only metric, there aren't any apples/oranges comparisons; all businesses are comparable.

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#276

Post by kamechan » Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 4:53 AM UTC

pooriaazimi wrote: post #224

cageface wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their market share is rapidly falling wrt Android. There's no way they can maintain that profit share if this continues and they know it.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I disagree. I find Apple's strategy more solid and sustainable than their competitors'. BTW, I just wanted to say you have a GitHub link on your HN profile that leads to a 404. I thought maybe that was a mistake and you might want to fix it :)

If by "strategy" you mean patenting obvious and likely things that already existed and then litigating the crap out of people, you may be right...this trial has set a precedent that might make that sustainable for them.

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#277

Post by kenrikm » Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 4:53 AM UTC

cageface wrote: post #246

mikeflynn wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the market is really "punishing" them all right: https://www.google.com/finance?client=ob&q=NASDAQ:AAPL (stock currently at $663) Google and Apple may have, at a high level, opposing strategies, but Apple's approach is being adopted more and more (app stores, having more control on the experience, etc...) and companies wouldn't do that if it wasn't working. Hell Google's own products, the ones where they stamp…

Apple's strategy assumes that a single company and a single line of devices can indefinitely command the lion's share of the most important computing platform of our time. This just doesn't seem tenable to me. For every consumer that's completely satisfied with the Apple experience there will be 3-4 others that prefer some other product for any number of reasons. When in the history of the world have we ever seen a s…

iPod....

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#278

Post by magicalist » Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 4:55 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #265

jellicle wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your understanding disagrees with current law.

It doesn't. It only seems to because people on HN, reddit, etc, don't know how to read patent claims.

Ah yes, that old canard. "No time to explain, but you're wrong."

Please feel free to respond to my post and tell me exactly how I misinterpreted that claim.

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#279

Post by dkrich » Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 4:57 AM UTC

Anechoic wrote: post #270

dkrich wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What did Samsung do that is shady, that Apple itself didn't? Apple was the first to market with the most-polished device, but all one has to do is look at the old Palm Pilot to know that they completely ripped off the design and layout. Who cares? Apple was already winning on their merits. I have a feeling people will look back on this as a major turning point in Apple's history. They are starting to look like a para…

but all one has to do is look at the old Palm Pilot to know that they completely ripped off the design and layout. You're forgetting about the Newton.

Right, any computer with square icons arranged in a table format must have originated from the Newton. How could anybody have figured out to put icons into rows and columns?

But seriously, Palm had an SDK and a phone with a touch interface and downloadable apps a good three to four years before the iPhone was introduced. Any brick with a touch interface does not fall into that category I'm afraid.

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#280

Post by CamperBob2 » Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 4:59 AM UTC

esolyt wrote: post #260

CamperBob2 wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you can also make an Android phone. You just need to avoid infringing these specific patents either by removing functionality or implementing it in another way. As magicalist points out elsewhere in the thread, it is utterly impossible for anyone to build anything resembling a modern smartphone without infringing claim 8 of Apple's '915 patent. You can build a phone or a tablet, but whatever you build will not be…

Apple doesn't have a patent for one finger scrolling or pinch zooming. If the claim you are talking about is one finger scrolling, having that feature is not enough to violate the whole patent. The patent in question is about a method to detect transition from scrolling to zooming. It will be worked around.

How in the world do you interpret the language in claim 8 as "detecting a transition from scrolling to zooming"? The plain language just describes a single system that can process both single-touch scrolling input and multitouch gestures. Anything that does both appears to be covered by the claim.