Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#221

Post by alberich » Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 2:20 AM UTC

jcdavis wrote: post #51

alberich wrote: post #16

American patent system is weird. Why is it fair for someone to patent "what" you do, what should be fair to patent is "how" you make this thing viable (e.g. the algorithms used, or something like that)? As long as you don't use the mechanisms of your competition, you should be allowed to mimic the features present on other competitors' devices. Considering this, it seems clear that Samsung would lose the dispute anyw…

> you should be allowed to mimic the features present on other competitors' devices. To play the devil's advocate (as someone who hasn't taken a position on this ruling, but hates software patents in general): Why? Apple appears to have spent a lot of time and effort on small details. Why does Samsung get to just copy that with far less time and effort invested? With design, the "how" is a crapton of iteration and ca…

I agree that Apple should be able to protect what is looks like, not what it works like.

Sure this is a point of view (after all, the american patent system didn't come up out of nowhere). I believe that if you let people to patent things like 2-click buy, finger gestures, and stuff like that, you just close the door for competition. You effectively prohibit people of making things like that, because even though you come up with a completely different mechanism to provide the same interactive interface, you have to pay for an abstract idea.

Maybe Samsung should be able to copy it (the concept) for free because that is what is called competition. In an ideal scenario, to stay ahead in competition you should continuously come up with new and better ideas. If you competitors suck so badly that they must copy you everytime, you'll stay ahead anyway.

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#222

Post by cageface » Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 2:24 AM UTC

pooriaazimi wrote: post #218

cageface wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple has done a good job of persuading people that this case was about protecting innovation and about Samsung's specific alleged infringements of their patents. But this is nothing more than a smoke screen for their ongoing proxy war on Android. They've refused to compete with Android on price, features, and form factors and the market has punished them for it. Expect more attacks on Android seeking ridiculous dama…

> the market has punished [Apple] for it You're serious? They take 73% of the profit in smartphone market, with Samsung at the second place (26%) and HTC, third (1%), their stock is booming, they have more money in the bank than all of their competitors combined (they can buy Samsung, HTC and Dell and shut them down and still have a few billion dollars left). I'd call that reward, not punishment. http://www.asymco.co…

Their market share is rapidly falling wrt Android. There's no way they can maintain that profit share if this continues and they know it.

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#223

Post by veidr » Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 2:25 AM UTC

ojiikun wrote: post #132

You know those 45% of HN readers that use a Mac? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4422121 Time to start voting with your $$ against AAPL. They are part of the problem, not part of the innovation.

I try to do this, just because I viscerally dislike Apple specifically and the increasing hegemony of corporations over individuals in general, but it is really hard to stick with because Apple simply makes the best fucking products.

I bought a Galaxy Nexus, and it's a lot better than previous Android phones, but it just sucks too much to rely on so I carry two phones. I bought a Nexus 7, which I actually like more than the current iPad, but that is mostly form-factor thing; a 7-inch iPad would relegate the Nexus 7 to the shelf.

So I can decide to use these slightly shittier devices and 'punish' Apple, but it doesn't feel worthwhile, because in doing so I also have to punish myself, and Apple isn't the actual underlying problem.

In this case, it is the dysfunctional patent system. In another recent case where Apple was the villian, the issue was the diminishment of the rights of individual citizens in favor of protecting the interests of multinational corporations: when Apple actively lobbied to make jailbreaking illegal.

That was a case where the actual underlying system was resolved in favor of the good guys (per my worldview, and that of most HN readers I presume). The law of the land was changed, and the problem was solved/averted.

Fixing the patent system seems like a herculean task, probably much harder than protecting our legal right to crack shitty DRM and usage restrictions on devices we own, but I think it is still the right place to focus. Apple may be the latest Oracle/SCO/AssholeCorp, but as long as the underlying legal system is completely fucked, even if Apple disappeared there would just be another corporation that came along and started doing the same shit.

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#224

Post by pooriaazimi » Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 2:27 AM UTC

cageface wrote: post #222

pooriaazimi wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the market has punished [Apple] for it You're serious? They take 73% of the profit in smartphone market, with Samsung at the second place (26%) and HTC, third (1%), their stock is booming, they have more money in the bank than all of their competitors combined (they can buy Samsung, HTC and Dell and shut them down and still have a few billion dollars left). I'd call that reward, not punishment. http://www.asymco.co…

Their market share is rapidly falling wrt Android. There's no way they can maintain that profit share if this continues and they know it.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I disagree. I find Apple's strategy more solid and sustainable than their competitors'.

BTW, I just wanted to say you have a GitHub link on your HN profile that leads to a 404. I thought maybe that was a mistake and you might want to fix it :)

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#225

Post by recoiledsnake » Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 2:31 AM UTC

nsp wrote: post #150

nikcub wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact is that there is no lawsuit between Microsoft and Apple despite almost everybody else in the mobile industry suing everybody else[1] [1] http://i-cdn.phonearena.com/images/articles/53157-image/Web-...

The more plausible reason Apple doesn't sue Microsoft is their lack of success in the space. Windows Phone has negligible marketshare and almost certainly loses money given the huge upfront costs of building an operating system and software ecosystem. It'd be hard for Apple to claim they lost a significant amount of revenue or sales from Windows Phone IP theft.

I think the most plausible reason is the same reason that Microsoft and IBM don't sue each other over patents.

Apple and MS have so many core patents that cover Windows, OS X, Windows Mobile and iOS, not to mention media players, office software etc. that any lawsuit will most probably end up in huge legal fees followed by a cross licensing deal after all the counter claims are decided on.

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#226

Post by runn1ng » Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 2:33 AM UTC

veemjeem wrote: post #139

Steko wrote: post #98

This is a good result. Samsung copies for a living like many companies. Much of the copying is legal. Sometimes they push it too far. One smoking gun in this case was the Google told Samsung to change their designs. They didn't. They reaped the benefits in terms of higher sales and now they can reap the bad side of that too. On net it has still been profitable from Samsung. Samsung lost but it hasn't been shut down o…

I don't understand the mindset of companies in the eastern hemisphere. I feel like the majority of companies in china / korea thrive by copying other successful company products to survive. It's more blatant in china, but it still happens in korea / japan. I feel like there must be some underlying cultural thing that promotes this kind of behavior -- nobody feels like they're doing the wrong thing.

Yes, it is a very cultural thing. I am generalizing here, but in Asia, individuality is (relatively) valued less and conformity valued more.

I might be downvoted for this, but well, there is a reason why all the Japanese cartoons/comics look similar to each other while western are much more diverse.

One of my friends that was in South Korea for some time really didn't like their lifestyle and told me, that this is probably how Romani people must feel in our country. There is something on it.

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#227

Post by recoiledsnake » Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 2:39 AM UTC

pooriaazimi wrote: post #218

cageface wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple has done a good job of persuading people that this case was about protecting innovation and about Samsung's specific alleged infringements of their patents. But this is nothing more than a smoke screen for their ongoing proxy war on Android. They've refused to compete with Android on price, features, and form factors and the market has punished them for it. Expect more attacks on Android seeking ridiculous dama…

> the market has punished [Apple] for it You're serious? They take 73% of the profit in smartphone market, with Samsung at the second place (26%) and HTC, third (1%), their stock is booming, they have more money in the bank than all of their competitors combined (they can buy Samsung, HTC and Dell and shut them down and still have a few billion dollars left). I'd call that reward, not punishment. http://www.asymco.co…

>They take 73% of the profit in smartphone market

I chuckle every time I hear this. How much profit of the web server market does Microsoft take with IIS vs. the free alternatives like Apache and Nginx?

Who wins in the Server OS market of Windows Server vs. Linux/BSD? Who dominates the web dev tools market of Visual Studio vs. Eclipse/etc. ?

The same arguments you make can be made against the above too.

The idea of profit share as the metric was hyped up by the Apple fan blog network of Gruber-Siegler-Asymco etc. First, when Android had lower market share, they made numerous claims and 'analysis' that said Android could never overtake iPhone. When that did happen, for some time, they added the iPad to the mix by making it iOS vs. Android instead of just the mobile market and declared Apple the winner. And then later came up with the profitshare argument. Looks like the only metric that matters is what makes Apple the winner.

One example of a bizarre comparison(sneering and snarky as usual) http://daringfireball.net/linked/2012/07/27/amzn

Since when did profit become the one and true metric?

I realize that they're writing what their audience wants to read, my only peeve is how much airtime their posts and arguments are given on HN. Meanwhile Paul Thurrott's Winsupersite is hellbanned on HN just for being a Microsoft watcher site. Draw your own conclusions.

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#228

Post by astrange » Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 2:42 AM UTC

cageface wrote: post #210

programminggeek wrote: post #10

This is both unsurprising and somewhat meaningless as there will be an appeals process that will last for months and possibly years. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see that Samsung made their products to look like Apple products. They changed their icon styles and other UI elements away from Android standards to match the Apple style. Some of the things Apple invented and patented on like pinch to zoom an…

Apple has done a good job of persuading people that this case was about protecting innovation and about Samsung's specific alleged infringements of their patents. But this is nothing more than a smoke screen for their ongoing proxy war on Android. They've refused to compete with Android on price, features, and form factors and the market has punished them for it. Expect more attacks on Android seeking ridiculous dama…

> and the market has punished them for it

In what way?

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#229

Post by darkandbrooding » Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 2:43 AM UTC

ojiikun wrote: post #132

You know those 45% of HN readers that use a Mac? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4422121 Time to start voting with your $$ against AAPL. They are part of the problem, not part of the innovation.

I don't disagree with your exhortation to vote with your dollars. It's a principle that I constantly think about as a consumer. However, saying "Don't do X" is IMO not usually very productive. Saying "Do Y instead of X" has a much better success rate. For those customers to whom feature set is as (or more) important than the Big Picture, can you recommend an alternative?

I've consistently used Apple hardware for many years because of the combination of multimedia-friendly Unix on ultra quiet hardware. I currently use an iMac because I get a large screen, a small desktop footprint, and no fan noise. Is there a hardware vendor who makes very quiet machines, whose components are well supported by Linux, and whose sins are modest enough for you to recommend them?

Re: Apple Wins Patent Ruling As Jury Finds Samsung Infringes

#230

Post by cageface » Sat, Aug 25, 2012, 2:46 AM UTC

pooriaazimi wrote: post #224

cageface wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their market share is rapidly falling wrt Android. There's no way they can maintain that profit share if this continues and they know it.

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I disagree. I find Apple's strategy more solid and sustainable than their competitors'. BTW, I just wanted to say you have a GitHub link on your HN profile that leads to a 404. I thought maybe that was a mistake and you might want to fix it :)

It seems like essentially the same strategy that lost them the desktop wars after taking an early lead with the Mac. I don't see why we should expect things to be any different this time, although their vertical approach is better suited to mobile.

Thanks for heads up on github. Fixed.