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Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

telegraph.co.uk

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Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#691

Post by missedthecue »

burnt-resistor wrote: post #661
MaxPock wrote: post #658

The solution is pretty simple for the society. Either have three kids or you work till you are 70.

The society first has to provide for its citizens instead of giving socialism to billionaires instead of a proper social safety net, or they won't want to or can't have kids.

Most people would say Denmark has a proper social safety net. People aren't having kids because they don't want kids. And no amount of parental leave or childcare subsidies flips the switch when flights to *popular tourist destination* are a couple hundred euro.

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#692

Post by bartread »

consp wrote: post #672
DanHulton wrote: post #637

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taxes pay these pensions. Taxes that citizens have paid for their whole working lives, with the understanding that they would benefit from that pension fund in their later years. It's actually far closer to a "vacation", but not "sponsored by the government" -- closer to "that you've been saving for already for years."

In almost no country those taxes work like a normal pension. They are an as is fund where people pay now for those pensions now. You do not save for your own retirement, you pay for the retirement of the current generation.

Yes, and with an aging population the bill gets ever more expensive so people have to work longer to cover it.

I don’t like it either but can well imagine I’ll be working until 70, if I last that long.

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#693

Post by lovich »

discodonkey wrote: post #690

This is perfectly reasonable. People are living and staying healthy for longer than they used to, while the overall population is aging disproportionally due to low birth rates. If they hadn't raised the retirement age, they would have to raise taxes very significantly. People should remember that retirement is about making sure the people who are too old to work can still live respectably. It's not an end-of-life va…

> But the alternative is fiscal armageddon

Or possibly making a trade off on any number of other areas the government spends money on, or raising taxes.

No wait I forgot, either pushing the burden onto labor or Armageddon, no alternatives

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#694

Post by the_black_hand »

I'm going to get downvoted for this, but it makes sense. People live much longer than in the past. Advancements in fitness and the decline in birthrates only make it fair for us to work a little longer. Ultimately, what I hope for is AI to take care of most of the heavy work and allow us more leasiurely time, but we are still decades away from getting their.

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#695

Post by csomar »

timschmidt wrote: post #670
csomar wrote: post #656

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You've created an impossible situation which will never exist It can and does, albeit in slower motion (ie Japan, South Korea) > why taking care of the elderly, something humans have done since before recorded history, is flawed. Humans took care of THEIR elderly. The system was made to take care of THE elderly. Pretty sure most people don't want to see old people begging for food on the street but also prefer not…

> It can and does, albeit in slower motion (ie Japan, South Korea) Read what he wrote again. The scenario he created (everyone works, then everyone retires) has never and will never happen. Humanity is more likely to be wiped out by a meteor. > Humans took care of THEIR elderly. Point me toward the non-human elderly being supported by the social safety net. We're all related. You just have to look back far enough. >…

> The scenario he created (everyone works, then everyone retires) has never and will never happen.

It can happen in a generation, if all of that generation decides to have zero offspring. This is why it is happening in slow motion. There are still people having kids but not enough for sustaining the current population levels.

> We're all related.

We are also related to bugs. Humans generally care for their very close relatives (kids -> parents -> cousins...) and emotionally care for the rest of humans.

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#696

Post by the_black_hand »

duttish wrote: post #435
intothemild wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's only one issue I can think of with your idea that someone who is 75 now leads a life as you're describing. The generation they belong to are predicted to live to what 80-85 years? Whilst we (assuming you're in your 40's now) are predicted to get to what 90-95 on average? Average lifespans are increasing, and on top of that the mobility of someone who's 75 now, won't be the same of someone who's 75 in another…

Does anyone know if there's any kind of metrics for healthspans? Meaning the "good" part of life before it's just doctors, medicine and retirement homes. My impression so far is that we've done a lot of work at the lifespan, less at the healthspan. What's the point of living until 90 if the last 15 years isn't that fun at all.

But generally, work has gotten way less physically demanding so it balances out. Tech allows you to work in via Zoom in the comfort of your home. I hope to be coding literally till the day I die.

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#697

Post by rayiner »

mchanson wrote: post #638
jltsiren wrote: post #583

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing sad about this. Mandatory pensions are not a vacation sponsored by the government but a way to provide for those who can't provide for themselves. If you were born in the 70s, you should have known for most of your adult life that your normal retirement age is likely going to be around 70. The demographic situation is not new, the solutions have been discussed extensively since at least the 90s, and…

Part of the deal with progress should be that we all start working less. If not is the progress all that attractive? Improved health so we can all work more is kinda stupid.

> Part of the deal with progress should be that we all start working less. If not is the progress all that attractive?

But we don't want to work less, we want more stuff.

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#698

Post by simongray »

vitus wrote: post #677
jltsiren wrote: post #660

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's been happening, but not as quickly as earlier generations expected. In 1970, the average labor force participant (employed or unemployed) in Denmark worked 1845 hours. By 2022, the number had fallen to 1371 hours. The numbers are similar for most West European countries but not for East Europe or the US.

> 1371 hours Out of curiosity, what drove that shift? Shorter workweek, fewer hours per day, drastically more vacation, or some combination of the above? Based on a 40-hour workweek, this would be 34 workweeks. Adding on 2-3 weeks worth of paid holidays, that leaves the equivalent of 15-16 weeks of vacation a year? I know my coworkers in Europe get more vacation than we do, but somehow I don't think it's that much mo…

Full-time in Denmark is 37 hours/week and most people have around 6 weeks of vacation/year (the legal minimum is 5). Some people will be working part-time, bringing the total hours worked down, so the numbers make sense to me.

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#699

Post by alexey-salmin »

amag wrote: post #409

This is truly sad. As a Swede I fear my country may follow suite. The retirement age in Sweden used to be 65 and now it's 67. Looking at older people around me, most lead a much less active life after 75. So, if we were lucky we used to have some 10 good years of doing whatever we wanted before old age and age-related diseases start affecting us so much we become limited to a much smaller world. But now we have maybe…

> I think if you've put in 40-45 years for the man, you should be allowed to have some good 10 years for yourself. Travel, play golf, cross a continent in a camper or climb a mountain.

Not unless you've raised 2 more workers to pick up the shovel while you're playing golf. You could, of course, rely on your neighbor's kids through taxes and pensions but when your neighbor thinks the same it becomes problematic.

On the plus side, if you did raise kids, you may negotiate your retirement with them even if the averaged government system stops working.

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#700

Post by rayiner »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #456
gessha wrote: post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Back when it was first introduced, it was based on life expectancy and few were expected to live beyond retirement age. [1] [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/10/how-ret...

Turns out retirement is just an illusion to convince you to give your best years for the system.

What "system?" If you don't work, you don't eat. That's always been the rule.
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