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Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

telegraph.co.uk

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Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#51

Post by littlestymaar »

tossandthrow wrote: post #37
littlestymaar wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are missing the most important one: - increase productivity more than how much the workforce/receivers grow. And if AI/robots eventually deliver, we're soon going to need a discussion about lowering the retirement age to 55 or even 50 if we don't want 30% unemployment anyway.

That would be raising taxes. - indifferent to how much automation you have, people still need to pay for it, for money they don't earn.

When people refer to “raise taxes” they usually talk about raising the rates, but you don't need to raise rates, if the GDP increase then the amount collected through taxes increases even if you don't change the rate.

And as such, it feels like labelling that “raise taxes” is disingenuous.

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#52

Post by tossandthrow »

polipus wrote: post #32
tossandthrow wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In all fairness. the housing market in Denmark is approachable - you can get houses near major cities for usd 80k. Social security, you can go unemployed for years and still pay your bills. Government provided education with stipend - having masters degrees are common. And the economy is strong. Most Danes understand that this is inevitable - the big issue is that the politicians have given themselves more favorable…

Living in Copenhagen for the last 7 years. - housing for 80k USD is 525k DKK: no way you can find anything at that price anywhere close to cph. Not sure for other "major" cities, but in cph you can expect to pay 4mil DKK (600K USD) for a ~60 sqmt apartment, prices will fall outside the cities, but nowhere close to 80k USD. Where did you get that number? - you pay for your unemployment benefit, thought an a-kasse. Its…

That is why I explicitly said major cities and not Copenhagen.

Look 20 minutes out of Odense, Aalborg, Randers, etc.

Don't let yourself believe that a country is nothing but its capital - it is correct, that if you decide to live in a 4mil DKK apartment in the Copenhagen area, then you have also opted out of public help, and you are on your own.

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#53

Post by spacebanana7 »

lostlogin wrote: post #30
tossandthrow wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is. And this is the case in all western countries. It is just being realized in different ways. Fundamentalle there are 3 ways to cope 1. reduce pensions 2. Raise taxes 3. Decrease amount of benefit receivers. Denmark choose number 3

2 has some options. Increase the number of (young) immigrants. Increase the birthrate (has anywhere managed this?).

Israel is the only developed country which has a sustained positive fertility rate.

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#54

Post by dyauspitr »

tossandthrow wrote: post #11
dtgm92 wrote: post #9

This is because of their low birth rate primarily right? I think the system has failed at this point, when you are expected to work that long.

It is. And this is the case in all western countries. It is just being realized in different ways. Fundamentalle there are 3 ways to cope 1. reduce pensions 2. Raise taxes 3. Decrease amount of benefit receivers. Denmark choose number 3

4. Stop spending 90% of healthcare costs on 5% of chronic problem beneficiaries.

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#55

Post by pfdietz »

CubsFan1060 wrote: post #23
tossandthrow wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is. And this is the case in all western countries. It is just being realized in different ways. Fundamentalle there are 3 ways to cope 1. reduce pensions 2. Raise taxes 3. Decrease amount of benefit receivers. Denmark choose number 3

Wouldn't the fourth way be via increasing either birth rate or immigration?

The total fertility rate (number of children per woman) seems stubborn against attempts to raise it.

I suggest instead altering the male/female ratio, so a stable or growing population can be maintained at lower TFR. Technically, filter sperm to remove those with Y chromosomes before artificial insemination.

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#56

Post by jordanb »

constantcrying wrote: post #28
dtgm92 wrote: post #9

This is because of their low birth rate primarily right? I think the system has failed at this point, when you are expected to work that long.

No. It is about how the system is funded. If pensions were funded by actual retirement accounts, where employees invested money into some state fund and have it paid out for retirement this would be entirely unproblematic. But the pension system in many EU countries is set up in a way in which tax contributions now finance pensions now . This can only work with a steadily growing economy which continually generates m…

Fundamentally any retirement plan that doesn't involve canned food in a celler is pay-go because the retirees will be consuming resources from the economy they retired into rather than the one they were workers in.

Their retirement savings can be in public company stocks instead of government guarantees but that only works if there are people willing to buy those stocks (ex: younger people saving for retirement).

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#57

Post by deanc »

ryan93 wrote: post #7
deanc wrote: post #4

I’m not sure how I feel about this. I’m based in the Nordics and my estimated retirement age at the moment (where I can get my state pension) is 67y 4m. Whilst I understand the burden the aging population is having on society (lifespan) it doesn’t seem like there’s much proactive government input into people’s healthspan. Maybe instead we should try investing in this area (reducing the burden on services) instead of…

Are you really claiming there is some big health issue in the nordic countries suppressing life span?

No. I am suggesting that governments invest more into ensuring their aging population is healthy instead of draining every bit of life from them by making them work later and later.

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#58

Post by tossandthrow »

littlestymaar wrote: post #51
tossandthrow wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That would be raising taxes. - indifferent to how much automation you have, people still need to pay for it, for money they don't earn.

When people refer to “raise taxes” they usually talk about raising the rates, but you don't need to raise rates, if the GDP increase then the amount collected through taxes increases even if you don't change the rate. And as such, it feels like labelling that “raise taxes” is disingenuous.

Exactly, another way to increase taxes is also by increasing gdp.

Indeed the normal Understanding is not only about increasing rates - look at Switzerland eg.

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#59

Post by WinstonSmith84 »

In many EU countries, retirement age increase while the value of the pension itself decreases. It's about demographic of course but it's also the signs of a failed system. People understands this and are contribution more and more towards private funds which are meant to offset the loss - slowly shifting to a US system.

The current system is just not broken but unfair. In many EU countries, people are not contributing for themselves, but for the previous generation being currently retired. In turn, it's supposed that babies born today will work for the pension of the currently active generation. This pension system is nothing else but a pyramide scheme and that scheme is now breaking due to a demographic issue - just like a traditional pyramide scheme would break because there are not enough participants to that scheme ...

Re: Denmark to raise retirement age to 70

#60

Post by deanc »

WA wrote: post #14
deanc wrote: post #4

I’m not sure how I feel about this. I’m based in the Nordics and my estimated retirement age at the moment (where I can get my state pension) is 67y 4m. Whilst I understand the burden the aging population is having on society (lifespan) it doesn’t seem like there’s much proactive government input into people’s healthspan. Maybe instead we should try investing in this area (reducing the burden on services) instead of…

It’s the other way around: a few decades ago people retired only a few years earlier, had 5-10 years of retirement and then died. Now people live way longer, but the retirement age never got adjusted properly to the new reality. So 15-20 years of retirement is the new normal. In addition, way fewer young payers for the now old.

Sure. But is that the society we want to live in. Do we not have ambitions to have people work less, enjoy what little life they have more? I'm not saying this is an economically easy problem to solve, but we focus so much on economics and so little on policies that make people happy.
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