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Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

nytimes.com

581–590 of 1001 posts

Re: Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

#581
post #89

Can someone ELI5 the power networks involved here? I didn't expect to see Harvard getting smacked around or humiliated like this. Between Harvard, Yale, and possibly a few other schools, I thought they had influence throughout government. And that key figures in government were interested in maintaining and benefiting from that influence. And a lot of that influence seemed aligned with national interests. (For exampl…

Disregarding whatever surface-level motivations Trump might have, let's look at some things attacking Harvard accomplishes.

1. Maybe most importantly, attacking academic institutions is part of the fascist coup playbook. [1] That could really be enough motivation on its own - these steps have lead to the desired outcome before, if you follow them closely enough they will probably work again. Just like the seemingly out-of-the-left-field framing of DEI, of all things, as the big Enemy that is corrupting art, science and the American people itself. It seems crazy, but notice how well it's working.

2. It's another vase to throw in the air, forcing you to catch it, cartoon-style. People who care and believe in process will spend time and energy going through the court system to limit the damage done, but the defenders will lag behind, their focus divided, while the attackers can just keep breaking bigger and bigger things, since they not care much what damage they do to people or their country.

3. It lets them target pro-Palestine protesters gradually starting from the most extreme. The genocide in Gaza can go a lot further. It is mutually beneficial for Trump, Netanyahu and Putin to divide both domestic and international outrage between them (see point 2.) By the time the full scale of the atrocities are clear, arresting and prosecuting protesters for "antisemitism" will be routine. And if you're not willing to stand up and protest, and therefore be removed, chances are you won't stick your neck out when they instate "temporary" changes to federal elections - only out of some extreme necessity, of course.

[1] https://perspectives.ushmm.org/collection/higher-education-i...

Re: Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

#582
post #20

Don’t miss this bit. Currently enrolled students are going to need to find a new university. > In a news release, the Department of Homeland Security sent a stark message to Harvard’s international students: “This means Harvard can no longer enroll foreign students, and existing foreign students must transfer or lose their legal status.”

A judge has already blocked the move. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/judge-blocks-tr... > A federal judge in California has blocked the Trump administration from terminating the legal statuses of international students at universities across the U.S.

Nationwide injunctions are going the way of the dodo

Re: Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

#584

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He's 78 and at the end of his political career in few years, he could care less.

He couldn’t care less.

Or maybe he could care less, but doesn't even bother to care less because caring less would exert effort and he doesn't care enough to exert any effort.

Re: Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

#585
post #343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Btw, I am a University employee who serves (among other things) children affected by parents who abuse drugs. My organization employs hundreds of people working on everything from low income nutrition education to researching Medicaid expenditure. We belong to the University, but we don’t have anything to do with undergraduate education. This is the problem with looking at higher-Ed ratios like that…there are a lot o…

I don't have first hand experience with your situation and I would imagine that you believe you are doing a great thing for society and I don't want to disparage thats so I don't intend my comments to speak to your specific institution or situation. I apologize if you see my comments this way. --- Broadly speaking the spending and staff levels at universities have grown over time while the number of enrolled students…

I think where we agree is that we need to reduce the social costs of college, one way or another.

But we don’t agree on how that should happen.

The underlying problem as I see it is that there aren’t enough slots for students in schools that are socially viewed as “reputable.” It’s not much different from beachfront property in that way.

We’ve allowed schools to build up a “mystique” for generations that a Harvard education or a state school education was the only ticket to the upper middle class…of course it’s expensive. As long as there are waitlists a mile long at nearly every state school, we will never see meaningful reduction in costs. The other way to fix that issue is to insist they build a plan to enroll 30% more students over 5 years.

Re: Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

#586

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even more specific: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Enlightenment

From the wikipedia article: > Curtis Yarvin began constructing the basis of the ideology in the late 2000 Ah yes of course this dude is involved. The more I read about Curtis Y, the more I believe he suffers from some sort of undiagnosed mental illness.

No work of fiction prepared me for the most influential "intellectual" to be a dude with a Substack blog that acts as a how-to guide on how to overturn a democracy, which is then followed by the most powerful country in the world a full election cycle after it started being written.

Re: Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

#587

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get how DHS has control over what universities foreign students can attend. Either than can attend school in the US or not. Saying they have to transfer from Harvard to another American university is total abuse of power. Surely there are lawsuits in the works over this.

i'd guess this kind of thing (per-institutional authorization to allow international students) was intended to provide the government a way to revoke that right from "sham" institutions (wonder if Trump University ever had international students?) or ones that otherwise were obviously trying to facilitate students skirting or abusing immigration law. not that i agree with that anyways (citizenship is stupid, borders…

> not that i agree with that anyways (citizenship is stupid, borders are stupid, countries are stupid blah blah blah)

Millions of people worldwide have values that are radically different from yours or mine or >99% of people reading this. Consider, a country like Afghanistan-no doubt there are millions of Afghans who oppose the Taliban and are trapped under the rule of a government whose policies and values they radically oppose - and they are denied any realistic outlet to advocate for change using non-violent means-but, at the same time, there are also millions of Afghans who support the Taliban, who think it is great and its values and laws and policies and actions are all wonderful-do you really want millions of pro-Taliban Afghans to be allowed to move to your country if they want to and can afford to do so, and be allowed to vote in your elections as soon as they turn up? This isn’t saying we should ban immigrants or refugees from Afghanistan, only have some kind of filtering process which excludes those with radically opposed values, such as those who are pro-Taliban - and, so nobody thinks I’m singling out Afghans for special treatment, there are several other countries for which the same concern exists (consider e.g. Iran, North Korea), and such a “filtering process” can be designed to work in a way which treats immigrants/refugees of different nationalities/ethnicities/religions equally. But complete abolition of citizenship and immigration control would leave your country at the mercy of chance in terms of protection against takeover by newcomers with radically different values, and although in the short-run you’d escape that outcome (even if they were all free to come, most of them either don’t want to or can’t afford to), in the long-run the odds that you’d succumb to it only go up. And such a policy is fundamentally unstable, in that it would eventually become the cause of its own demise: once these newcomers with radically different values (whatever those values might be) take over, their new values will cause them to reinstate immigration and citizenship controls, to prevent anyone else doing to them what they did to you.

That’s not to say I agree with what the Trump administration is doing here - I actually sympathise with some conservative criticisms of Harvard, but this isn’t a gentle federal nudge in the right direction, it is attacking Harvard with a legally dubious sledgehammer - but just because an administration abuses immigration laws (something many governments around the world have done many times before) doesn’t change the fact that some degree of legal control of immigration and naturalisation is the right thing to have in principle

Re: Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

#588
post #89

Can someone ELI5 the power networks involved here? I didn't expect to see Harvard getting smacked around or humiliated like this. Between Harvard, Yale, and possibly a few other schools, I thought they had influence throughout government. And that key figures in government were interested in maintaining and benefiting from that influence. And a lot of that influence seemed aligned with national interests. (For exampl…

>> Are the power networks changing?

Yes and this can't be overstated. Interests that were previously aligned are now going to fracture. Everything is up for grabs now.

Re: Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

#589
post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard for me to see this as anything more than "they resisted Trump, that pissed him off and now he's further retaliating." Side question I've been wrestling with to whoever feels like commenting: At what point would you look at our current US situation and say "yep, we're now in a dictatorship"

The day Kilmar Abrego Garcia was supposed to be brought back, but defiantly wasn’t.

You know, usually I'd assume this was a misspelling of "definitely" but this time, I'm really not sure.

Re: Trump administration halts Harvard's ability to enroll international students

#590
post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please. They don’t care about higher education. These aren’t old-school white shoe Republicans. These are the people teaching the “truth” about the 2020 election in Oklahoma public schools. If our schools have lost any edge, it’s since Trump came back to power.

I am one of "them" and I care deeply about higher education which is why I am very sad that we could not achieve reform without resorting to measures such as threatening the international student admission process. I don't know anything about the people teaching the “truth” about the 2020 election in Oklahoma public schools but if this is happening I agree with you it is very wrong. "If our schools have lost any edge…

In what way does this or anything else Trump has done or indicated to do advance the state of education towards the goals of the reform you are talking about?
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