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Car companies are in a billion-dollar software war

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Re: Car companies are in a billion-dollar software war

#331

Post by whatever1 »

liveoneggs wrote: post #329
whatever1 wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer is that current car platforms were designed with flexibility as first goal. Car companies realized early on they could outsource component development and production to 3rd parties and they could make them bid each other to further lower the prices. So their platforms were optimized to be able to swap component vendors very easily (to achieve lowest costs). Of course the vendors are not 100% interchangeabl…

too bad computers aren't spark plugs

To be fair, this seemed to be the right strategy since they were able to be profitable in a very crowded market. Yes, the new companies try to verticalize everything from components to software, but none of them seem profitable (marginally Tesla passes the bar, but not so sure if you took away all the subsidies and carbon offsets).

So maybe the legacy guys were right all along?

Re: Car companies are in a billion-dollar software war

#332

Post by hedora »

nickff wrote: post #284
hedora wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at aftermarket MMI boxes. They do this for $150. (Screen and controls not included because they use the factory ones.) Someone should tell an automobile manufacturer. It’d save them ~ $1B.

Car companies have to worry about regulatory compliance, certification, approvals, as well as warranties; aftermarket manufacturers do not have such concerns (at least to the same degree).

It’s a box that forwards a carplay / android auto UI to an LCD, and snoops the cam bus for button press events.

The entire thing is $150, which is nothing compared to the rest of the warranty.

If regulatory compliance for a car stereo actually costs $1B in the US, then that seems like a bigger issue than “unfair” competition from China, and I’d like one of their $10K EVs, please.

Re: Car companies are in a billion-dollar software war

#333

Post by hedora »

DidYaWipe wrote: post #319
lmpdev wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Multimedia Interface?

Thanks. Seems to be some kind of Audi-specific branding. No wonder these clowns still can't put together a car radio that works reliably, let alone an automotive interconnect system; they're still using the term "multimedia." Welcome to CD-ROMs, circa 1994.

Audi, BMW, Volvo, Mini, and others.

It think it’s a standard for “events happen on cam bus”, “there is a not-hdmi display in the dashboard”, and “there are analog amplified audio out jacks for the speakers”.

From the consumer end, it looks remarkably sane. Like “there’s a dev kit for the computer on github” levels of sane.

Re: Car companies are in a billion-dollar software war

#334

Post by hedora »

neild wrote: post #258
deergomoo wrote: post #231

I want a 7-10” central display that spends 99% of its time showing CarPlay but also has a radio if I need it, the backup camera when I’m in reverse, and lets me change a couple of settings for convenience features like auto locking etc. Everything else can be dials, knobs, and buttons. My Mazda3 is perfect for this and I’m quite sad that I’m almost certainly not going to be able to find anything like it by the time I…

I have a 2024 Kia EV6, and this is pretty much what it does: Central screen displays CarPlay, backup camera, and infrequently-used settings controls, dials and knobs for most things, one secondary touchbar (row of buttons, but it’s really a touchscreen so the buttons can change) for climate controls. Pretty much perfect, although only wired CarPlay. (The 2025 models apparently have wireless.)

We have an EV9, and the user interface is so pathologically bad that we’re planning to get rid of it.

Everything makes it beep. Beeps for “you will die now” are similar to “you put me in gear”.

There’s one exception: For many reasons, it turns off one-pedal driving. When it does that and is unexpectedly accelerating into cross traffic, it does not beep (until the collision alarm sounds, presumably, ask me if it kills me…)

Re: Car companies are in a billion-dollar software war

#335

Post by gerdesj »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #324
gerdesj wrote: post #321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Excessive horning (made up word) is not just a Vietnamese thing. Italy is probably Europe's worst offender, with Greece a close contender. I'm not so familiar with Asia, but I get the impression that the entirety of Indian and most of Chinese drivers feel the need to lean on the horn with gay abandon (fnarr). In Britain the horn is generally reserved for "fuck that was close: I think you are a bit of a tosser" or "yo…

Horns were disabled in Chongqing at least a couple of decades ago. I’m not sure what it’s like now though, but the government in China can and will deal with excessive horning using means we wouldn’t consider in the west.

Although things are a bit shit in many places, I do love our planet and the weird and wonderful ways it works.

Were car horns disabled (broken deliberately) in Chongqing?

Re: Car companies are in a billion-dollar software war

#336

Post by garyfirestorm »

averageRoyalty wrote: post #213
acheron9383 wrote: post #199

As someone who works professionally on embedded software devices that update over the internet, car companies are stuck not because they can't get software talent, but because they have no ability to actually build the electronics alongside the software, which is ultimately what constrains embedded software. Without the right hardware, the constraints are just insurmountable, you can not do X feature because board A…

I understand the concept, but the question I have is why? These companies have huge wallets, and can surely scoop up a smaller automative microcontroller company and bring it in-house? It seems like a problem than enough money could solve quickly, but they've been doing horribly at this for decades now.

I work in one of the big three - the culture here is more waterfall and less agile. They decided at some point ‘we don’t need to be experts in building systems, we should only be good at spec’cing them and putting them together’ This leads to a mindset of relying on suppliers for changing even one line of code and at their mercy. Talent leaves because they didn’t get to do any of the fun stuff. And you’re left with bunch of MBAs trying to wing it in what is available which is - no talent, bunch of admineers, and a long list of supplier bills. They go for cheapest component they can spec for a given feature cutting 4MB memory will save 5 cents per car, we sell half a million cars, that’s big savings! I can go on and on about this, but one of us even tried to be Tesla trying to build our own zonal architecture - and are currently struggling due to costs, tarrifs and turnover. Also you can’t overnight change this mindset - building vs assembling. But there has to be some way and I’m too about to walk out the door due to ~10yrs of frustrations.

Re: Car companies are in a billion-dollar software war

#338

Post by garyfirestorm »

whatever1 wrote: post #331
liveoneggs wrote: post #329

Earlier quoted context omitted.

too bad computers aren't spark plugs

To be fair, this seemed to be the right strategy since they were able to be profitable in a very crowded market. Yes, the new companies try to verticalize everything from components to software, but none of them seem profitable (marginally Tesla passes the bar, but not so sure if you took away all the subsidies and carbon offsets). So maybe the legacy guys were right all along?

I can tell you this works if your product doesn’t need frequent upgrades/updates and isn’t cohesive. In legacy auto world, you ask for one line of code change and the supplier slaps 100k bill. This is generally why things look old, outdated, carried over and buggy.

Re: Car companies are in a billion-dollar software war

#339

Post by jwr »

typewithrhythm wrote: post #219
acheron9383 wrote: post #199

As someone who works professionally on embedded software devices that update over the internet, car companies are stuck not because they can't get software talent, but because they have no ability to actually build the electronics alongside the software, which is ultimately what constrains embedded software. Without the right hardware, the constraints are just insurmountable, you can not do X feature because board A…

This is only half the story, working for a major vendor, we sell both hardware and software, the whole way up to a full customisable well integrated platform. The manufacturers are deliberately choosing less capable systems, or taking thing piecemeal. Most of our customers simply don't believe good interfaces are worth the money... They tend to either want either a set of features checked off (only for existence, not…

> customers simply don't believe good interfaces are worth the money

I guess I'm in the minority, then, but as a data point: I own a VW ID.4 and I'd pay significantly more to get software that isn't such a burning dumpster tire fire.

And no, the excuses provided in this thread don't cut it.

To be clear: it doesn't even annoy me anymore that the infotainment is slow and crappy, I've gotten used to it and I just never use it. But I when I want to close both windows and I press two buttons simultaneously, I would like both windows to go up, not one up and one down, as it sometimes happens.

The crappiness of the software in this car is mind-boggling and it cannot be excused: most of it is incompetent and sloppy programming.

I would pay more for a car where the software department is somewhat competent and knows what they're doing.

Re: Car companies are in a billion-dollar software war

#340

Post by xethos »

b112 wrote: post #296
flax wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My 2017 Mazda cx5 refuses to not play the radio. There is no "off" for the audio, you have to choose a source. I use my phone, via bluetooth. But sometimes, for unknown reasons, the car does not connect with the phone. It then falls back to the last source chosen before BT, which is radio. Okay, so I created a flash drive with an mp3 of 30 seconds of silence, played that, then went back to bluetooth. This failback st…

Ah yes, Mazda. The car company which won't even give you a fuse box diagram, and instead says to contact the dealer if a fuse blows. https://www.cx90forum.com/threads/fuse-box-diagram.172/ Something foul and malign is afoot at Mazda these days.

While not dramatically better, just a few posts down[0] someone paid for the "Welcome to Mazda" service manuals/program for $30 and shared the fuse box schematics

[0] https://www.cx90forum.com/posts/2706/

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