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India launches attack on 9 sites in Pakistan and Pakistani Jammu and Kashmir

reuters.com

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Re: India launches attack on 9 sites in Pakistan and Pakistani Jammu and Kashmir

#461

Post by Mountain_Skies »

hshdhdhj4444 wrote: post #333
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People said the same sorts of things when Germany suddenly invaded Poland Hell, look at HN on the eve of Russia's invasion of Ukraine. One of the top comments was essentially a dismissal from Kherson edited to an "oh shit."

The competition to Putin entering Ukraine is obviously ridiculous. Putin had already attacked multiple countries before. Georgia, Chechnya, and leads a vast network of para militaries that are fighting all over Africa as well. Heck, Putin had literally attacked and conquered a whole area of Ukraine itself not even a decade ago. Anyone who was saying Putin would not attack Ukraine either had no knowledge at all about…

>Putin

>India

Interesting how in one case it's the leader of the country doing the invading and in the other it's the country doing it without the leader behind it mentioned.

Re: India launches attack on 9 sites in Pakistan and Pakistani Jammu and Kashmir

#462

Post by anonymars »

lostlogin wrote: post #367
navane wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you now, but I also remember everyone, all kinds of experts, saying Putin is just postering. I think it's important to remember that. It is important to note when things are not normal. Putin actually invading Ukraine was a very unexpected move. Unfortunately, we as people are very good at rationalizing after the fact "oh of course this was coming", shrugging our shoulders and just moving on as if nothin…

> Putin actually invading Ukraine was a very unexpected move. Was it? The scale was surprising, but troop build ups were noted ahead of time and Russia had been fighting in Ukraine for many years. Am I misremembering?

Very much so. The Biden administration was sounding the alarm, loudly, and the general vibe was, "well that wouldn't make any sense, there goes America crying wolf again like Iraq"

Here was one example: https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-ukraine-invasion-predictions-...

See also: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/2/21/why-ukrainians-dont...

Re: India launches attack on 9 sites in Pakistan and Pakistani Jammu and Kashmir

#463

Post by macintux »

somenameforme wrote: post #453
navane wrote: post #337

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you now, but I also remember everyone, all kinds of experts, saying Putin is just postering. I think it's important to remember that. It is important to note when things are not normal. Putin actually invading Ukraine was a very unexpected move. Unfortunately, we as people are very good at rationalizing after the fact "oh of course this was coming", shrugging our shoulders and just moving on as if nothin…

The problem is that posturing can turn into reality (which is perhaps what you're trying to say). I do think Russia was posturing. They began seeking negotiations 4 days after they invaded, and outside of an absurd longshot decapitation strike all of their early maneuvering was much more performative than military in nature. With Ukraine's entry into NATO appearing increasingly imminent, they likely felt they could f…

> With Ukraine's entry into NATO appearing increasingly imminent

Say what? AFAIK, Ukraine wasn’t even eligible for entry due to the organization’s rules on contested territories.

Re: India launches attack on 9 sites in Pakistan and Pakistani Jammu and Kashmir

#464

Post by matheusmoreira »

coryfklein wrote: post #430
hayst4ck wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel and Russia also want peace. China wants peace with Taiwan. The US wants peace with Greenland and Canada. You have to be careful with that word, peace, because all wars are defensive.

I’m sorry, but this is getting really out of hand, we can’t even use the word “peace” now?

Common street robbers want peace too. They want to rob you of your property as peacefully as possible. They very much want you to just surrender and let it happen.

Violence is usually conditional. It comes with instructions on how to avoid it. Let the criminal take your things and he won't shoot you. Let us take this territory and you won't be killed. If you surrender and submit to our rule, you will have your peace. It's just that the cost is your land, your economy, your freedom, your secuity, your dignity, your pride, your self-determination

The key fact about violence is nobody actually wants it. Everybody wants peace. At the same time, everybody also wants scarce resources that others are unwilling to just hand over to them. So they use the threat of violence to get what they want. Actual violence is risky and all bets are off once it escalates. Without the threat of violence though, why negotiate when you can just take?

So there's a lot of nuance to "peace". India cannot claim to want peace and then suspend a treaty that provides vital water resources to Pakistan. Pakistan cannot claim to want peace and at the same time support insurgency against India. All of these things will obviously escalate the situtation until it erupts into war.

Re: India launches attack on 9 sites in Pakistan and Pakistani Jammu and Kashmir

#465

Post by krisoft »

nblgbg wrote: post #61

I believe it's mostly overstated. Pakistan is not economically strong enough to participate in a war, and India is not interested either. However, the Modi government wants to project strength. They were unable to locate the terrorists even after two or three weeks and needed a distraction. So, they targeted some areas in Pakistan occupied Kashmir (PoK). In response, Pakistan claimed to have shot down four Indian air…

> Pakistan is not economically strong enough to participate in a war

They have nukes. They don't need to be rich to do massive damage. Sure doing so would have terrible consequences, but cooler heads sometimes don't prevail. Or only prevail after much suffering and pain.

Re: India launches attack on 9 sites in Pakistan and Pakistani Jammu and Kashmir

#466

Post by infecto »

coryfklein wrote: post #430
hayst4ck wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel and Russia also want peace. China wants peace with Taiwan. The US wants peace with Greenland and Canada. You have to be careful with that word, peace, because all wars are defensive.

I’m sorry, but this is getting really out of hand, we can’t even use the word “peace” now?

I didn’t read it that way. I read it more that saying India is a peaceful nation is probably not the full truth. As a third party I always had the impression this was one of those tit for tat forever wars. Each attack there is usually an antagonist but over the whole course it’s muddy.

Re: India launches attack on 9 sites in Pakistan and Pakistani Jammu and Kashmir

#467

Post by saagarjha »

ngc248 wrote: post #419
saagarjha wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, fascism can take a lot of forms. Just because you're not hitting every single manifestation doesn't mean it's not fascism. I mean, here in the US Trump lost the 2020 election, then picked up a majority again and is currently doing some pretty fascist stuff.

If retaliating against a nation which does asymmetric warfare via terrorism is being a facist, then so be it.

That's not what we're talking about.

Re: India launches attack on 9 sites in Pakistan and Pakistani Jammu and Kashmir

#468

Post by conradfr »

jjude wrote: post #287
nblgbg wrote: post #61

I believe it's mostly overstated. Pakistan is not economically strong enough to participate in a war, and India is not interested either. However, the Modi government wants to project strength. They were unable to locate the terrorists even after two or three weeks and needed a distraction. So, they targeted some areas in Pakistan occupied Kashmir (PoK). In response, Pakistan claimed to have shot down four Indian air…

> Pakistan is not economically strong enough to participate in a war, Pakistan has nothing to lose. So there are lots of incentives for Pakistan army to go rogue.

Pakistan is irrelevant, what do the people in charge have to lose (or win)?

Re: India launches attack on 9 sites in Pakistan and Pakistani Jammu and Kashmir

#469

Post by aurareturn »

chvid wrote: post #339
nashashmi wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

India has been notoriously hostile to its minorities and it seeks displacement of the “majority” population of Kashmir because they have been seeking secession from India. Typically when a country has acted harmfully, world leaders of the west have intervened especially in the case of India and Pakistan because it is a great disruption to trade and profit. It seems this time the West is overwhelmed with several issue…

Yes. Right now the thinking in the west seems to be that India has a bigger role to play in terms of geopolitics as a replacement of / balance against China. And India seems to have picked up on this and sees a greater opportunity to act in areas where it otherwise would have been constrained by the west.

This is a good take. India is definitely aware and is playing the west for advantages as an alternative to China.

Re: India launches attack on 9 sites in Pakistan and Pakistani Jammu and Kashmir

#470

Post by conradfr »

nblgbg wrote: post #61

I believe it's mostly overstated. Pakistan is not economically strong enough to participate in a war, and India is not interested either. However, the Modi government wants to project strength. They were unable to locate the terrorists even after two or three weeks and needed a distraction. So, they targeted some areas in Pakistan occupied Kashmir (PoK). In response, Pakistan claimed to have shot down four Indian air…

Yet people died.
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