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Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

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Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#121

Post by Symmetry »

mindcrime wrote: post #82
Symmetry wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The line is going to vary depending on the personality of the person you're trying to flirt with and how attractive they find you. That's just the way it is. This is why you flirt in a civilized manner first, and look for signs that they are or are not interested. And if you're paying attention you ought to notice if you make them uncomfortable, and apologize.

This is why you flirt in a civilized manner first, and look for signs that they are or are not interested. Yeah, it's easy enough to simply be polite, throw out some very casual flirting, and the see if the other person responds in kind. If they don't, don't try to escalate the encounter. Somehow this seems to escape an awful lot of people for some reason...

Yup. Geeks (male and female) can be dense about flirting at times, though. I'd like to think that I'm more perceptive nowadays, but when I was a sophomore in college I was asked out and taken on a date without realizing it, for instance. So be aware that they might just be really enjoying the conversation and not realizing that you're trying to flirt. Which doesn't even mean they wouldn't be happy to flirt back if they realized how things were! So again, just always be willing to revise your assumptions about the situation, and always be polite and be ready to back out if you misread things.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#122

Post by king_jester »

cbs wrote: post #75
jackpirate wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the reasons it's such a strong deterrent is that it is so difficult to confront someone in your peer group for doing something wrong. Because of that, peer disapproval already is not working in this environment; peers simply aren't disapproving. Maybe the card system will get people motivated enough to start disapproving, but I doubt it.

Because of that, peer disapproval already is not working in this environment; peers simply aren't disapproving. Yes, they are. Its just that any one isolated indecent of disapproval doesn't get much attention compared to incidents of scum. I'm not saying the levels of scum are acceptable, just that there is a disparity in which encounters get shared. The disapproval needs more mindshare, and thats why I think it was…

> Yes, they are. Its just that any one isolated indecent of disapproval doesn't get much attention compared to incidents of scum. I'm not saying the levels of scum are acceptable, just that there is a disparity in which encounters get shared.

We know that people have reported their first hand accounts of receiving harassment at multiple cons and multiple times per con. These incidents are not isolated. There is a strong chance that if you are a woman and you attend hacker conferences you will be harassed at least once. Computer circles at large have a problem with sexism and as an overall community does not disapprove of sexist behavior, attitudes, and actions.

Other people may not experience harassment at conventions. That is their experience and that is legit. However, that does not in any way negate other people's experience of harassment at those venues nor does it excuse those incidents. Conferences need to take a firmer stance against this kind of behavior, more so than just having cards, but rather with a well defined and clear harassment policy that is actually enforced.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#123

Post by asmithmd1 »

learc83 wrote: post #108
blhack wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly the consensus that all but one of my hacker friends, including the women, have come to. No. If you assault me, guess what's happening? I'm going to hit you in the fucking face, and most of the people here, since we're, you know, a community are going to physically remove you from the area. Edit: if this wasn't clear, the "I" in this story is would be my female friends.

>No. If you assault me, guess what's happening? I'm going to hit you in the fucking face Have fun explaining that to the cops (and the jury). "After I touched her inappropriately she slapped me, so fearing for my life, I punched her in the face , breaking her nose" Hell, if you do that you're likely to get punched in the face by a random passerby.

assault is harmful or offensive contact. The assault happened with the first inappropriate touch.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#124

Post by sethg »

FuzzyDunlop wrote: post #70
blhack wrote: post #40

It sounds like a lot of this stuff happens at bars during events, not at the events themselves. How common is this behavior at bars in general, independent from a hacker con? Also: some of the girls that I know who are hackers are offended at the idea of red/yellow cards. The implication there seems to be that they're helpless, and need somebody to swoop in and save them. That, at least to some of my girl friends, is…

From a feminist perspective, it's not very empowering to a woman to have to resort to props and other crazy schemes to get unscrupulous men to fuck off. Men don't have to do it, why should women. I think it'd be helpful to identify why this problem exists in the tech field. Is there a chicken and egg situation where more women in tech would solve these problems, but something about tech prevents more women getting in…

From a feminist perspective, it's not very empowering to a woman to have to resort to props and other crazy schemes to get unscrupulous men to fuck off.

People who already have power do not need props and schemes, because, well, they have power. I know that if I grab my boss’s crotch during a meeting and he says ”you have thirty seconds to convince me not to fire your sorry ass right now”, every witness to the event and everybody above him in the corporate hierarchy will back him up.

A man tempted to do the same thing to a woman less powerful than himself does not have the same assurance that he will suffer consequences for his bad behavior, and you can’t just create that sense of assurance by fiat. (As the Readercon debacle indicated, even written policies are no guarantee.) So people of good will are still trying to figure out how to hack the social environment to achieve a better culture, and until the rules of that culture become second nature to us all, then those social hacks will seem like, well, hacks.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#125

Post by rmc »

fein wrote: post #36

DefCon or 5 million college bars across the country? You could have replaced those two terms and ended up with the same article. Perhaps the problem isn't just a nerd demographic issue.

Does that mean that we shouldn't tackle it? No, this is our culture too, and we should fix it.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#126

Post by sp332 »

reinhardt wrote: post #97
brianjyee wrote: post #3

Not specific to hacker culture, but I always felt there was a bit of a double standard when it comes to alpha male behavior. Women are attracted to aggressive men. Women like men who take charge. Women like men who are the initiators. Now obviously there is a line that crosses over into sexual harassment, but the fact is that men who behave aggressively are the ones who succeed in sexual pursuits most often. It's alm…

Ugh.. the last thing we need is to turn this into a general sexual attraction discussion about what (we think) works and what doesn't. It's a way more complex and controversial topic that we don't have to solve in order to address the "women in IT" problem when there is a much simpler solution: DON'T TRY TO HIT ON WOMEN AT CONFERENCES OR OTHER BUSINESS/PROFESSIONAL ENVIRONMENTS AT ALL. PERIOD. There is no shortage of…

Like... the bar at a Vegas hotel where people go to chill between talks and at the end of the day?

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#127

Post by timo614 »

To the startup founders who are defending this behavior (if any of them do indeed run one or are attempting to start one): http://www.eeoc.gov/facts/fs-sex.html

Next, imagine your sister/mother/fiance was the girl at the bar who got licked or had her crotch grabbed. How would that make you feel?

I'll never understand how anyone can defend this sort of behavior... I used to volunteer at the women's center on my college campus... if you heard half the experiences most of these women go through on a regular basis maybe you'd learn some empathy.

How would you feel if some guy started cat calling you as you walked home at night? How about while you walk to the store? Now imagine this happening on a regular basis.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#128

Post by gatordan »

mindcrime wrote: post #31
brianjyee wrote: post #3

Not specific to hacker culture, but I always felt there was a bit of a double standard when it comes to alpha male behavior. Women are attracted to aggressive men. Women like men who take charge. Women like men who are the initiators. Now obviously there is a line that crosses over into sexual harassment, but the fact is that men who behave aggressively are the ones who succeed in sexual pursuits most often. It's alm…

It's almost as if when the girl is attracted to the guy, it's flirting, but when she isn't, it's creepy/sexual harassment. Yep, and that makes it incredibly hard to be a guy. You're almost "damned if you do, damned if you don't" when it comes to flirting and initiating things. Unfortunately, it's almost impossible to know - in advance - how someone is going to react. That said, there is a line somewhere, of behavior…

I think you should realize your comment - in a thread about counteracting sexual harassment towards women at conferences - is about how incredibly difficult it is to be a man. Nevermind how difficult it must feel to try to fit in as a minority group at a conference only to find yourself sexually harassed by a stranger.

Appreciate how privileged you are when your worry isn't "i hope some random man doesn't try to grab my ass" but instead "how am i supposed to know if this random woman wants me to grab her ass?". Is it really that difficult to be a guy? Is the line of sexual harassment (especially in the context of the articles examples) really that hard to figure out?

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#129

Post by s_baby »

agpen wrote: post #83
FuzzyDunlop wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From a feminist perspective, it's not very empowering to a woman to have to resort to props and other crazy schemes to get unscrupulous men to fuck off. Men don't have to do it, why should women. I think it'd be helpful to identify why this problem exists in the tech field. Is there a chicken and egg situation where more women in tech would solve these problems, but something about tech prevents more women getting in…

THIS is what prevents more women from going into tech fields. From academia to the workplace, IT/CS has been built into a self-reinforcing boys club. Until on a large scale it is no longer socially acceptable for geeks to treat women like shit, there won't be many women in technical fields.

Proof? Some research suggests women are turned off from the "hard" sciences before they reach high school.

It's likely a factor but you're putting the cart before the horse.

Re: Sexual Harassment at DefCon (and Other Hacker Cons)

#130

Post by awakeasleep »

asmithmd1 wrote: post #71
blhack wrote: post #40

It sounds like a lot of this stuff happens at bars during events, not at the events themselves. How common is this behavior at bars in general, independent from a hacker con? Also: some of the girls that I know who are hackers are offended at the idea of red/yellow cards. The implication there seems to be that they're helpless, and need somebody to swoop in and save them. That, at least to some of my girl friends, is…

Instead of the red card if someone touches you inappropriately why not slap them in the face - hard.

Why not both?
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