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Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

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Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#201

Post by stefs »

RHSeeger wrote: post #172
PeterStuer wrote: post #3

If the goal of school is to develop children into young adults with good reasoning and analytical skills, a basic wholesome world and social model and some practical skills and basic physique, smartphones seem to contribute little and distract a lot from those aims.

My daughter brings her phone to school with her - If he bus doesn't show up, she can call and ask us to come drive her to school - If she wants to go somewhere after school, she can call us and let us know she won't be home at her normal time - If she forgot something at home, she can call and ask us to bring it - etc, etc, etc There's a ton of reasons for her to have her phone on her. Enough so that, when she gets p…

> The law does not entirely ban the use of mobile phones at school, and their use will be permitted in certain situations. But generally, the use of phones *during class time* will be prohibited.

so, the finnish don't prohibit that at all.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#202

Post by lores »

tejohnso wrote: post #176
constantcrying wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I wrote below. My most memorable math class was a teacher failing to explain fractions to me, what later became obvious to me was that the teacher did not understand fractions either. I am sure you want to blame me for this, but somehow I went to university and got a degree in (applied) mathematics. So I doubt it was some fundamental problem with me. Everybody is upset when someone tells them they fail at their jo…

Incompetence is rampant in government jobs. Schools aren't technically government jobs, but there are many similarities in terms of incentives, hiring practice, dismissal difficulty, talent pool, etc. In any normal (private sector) job, if you can't perform the basic job requirements you get fired or retrained. Maybe you're moved to a different area that better suits your skill set. But you don't just sit in a positi…

"Incompetence is rampant" is enough. No, incompetent people do not get fired from the private sector either. The dumbest tech question I have ever heard from a tech manager ("why don't we do datamining in Flash?") was from an established guy at an established corporation that controls a lot of the things the world does and really, really shouldn't.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#203

Post by ndriscoll »

a3w wrote: post #78
ioseph wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a PC is a more apt comparison. Yes we learnt them in computer class but they weren't in the Math classroom. Hell learning software engineering I didn't use my laptop at all during lectures.

For some reason, we learn math as if we were farmers in the early 1900s. We do not learn (Bayesian) statistics early enough to tell fact from fraud, what city dwellers and voters could probably use instead. And applied math on a PC would be great, but we barely have applied math on a calculator. And kids love calculators: only digital numbers are numbers. 2/3 is cleary not a number to anyone below 20 years of age, th…

At least when I was a kid 20 years ago in the US, the math curriculum worked toward physical science and engineering applications (i.e. algebra, geometry, calculus), which also sets you up to understand probability/statistics. My impression was that's more or less standard all over. Has that changed?

I'm not sure how to interpret your last statement, but that seems like a problem worth correcting if true? They're going to need to understand fractions to do any math more advanced than elementary school level.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#204

Post by ethbr1 »

ecshafer wrote: post #179
RHSeeger wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My daughter brings her phone to school with her - If he bus doesn't show up, she can call and ask us to come drive her to school - If she wants to go somewhere after school, she can call us and let us know she won't be home at her normal time - If she forgot something at home, she can call and ask us to bring it - etc, etc, etc There's a ton of reasons for her to have her phone on her. Enough so that, when she gets p…

All of those reasons can be solved with her using a public phone. My school growing up had a phone in the hallway by the main office for those reasons.

As part of the last generation to grow up without phones in (early) school, this.

The endless rationalizing of why kids need to have phones at every moment rings hollow...

Because grade school kids actually did just fine without them.

Things functioned, people got where they needed to get, emergencies were handled, etc.

Especially with pre- and post-school access, we're balancing a minimum of in-school utility against a massive danger to learning and development.

We should just accept we built addiction boxes and therefore restrict them appropriately.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#205

Post by CivBase »

Kim_Bruning wrote: post #138

I deplore the fact that schools need to resort to banning phones. When I was younger I imagined a world in which computing devices would be a boon to (young) people everywhere. But many apps appear to be detrimental to people's mental health, both young and old. Possibly this can be changed. Maybe separate app stores are a solution (think f-droid)? Or maybe we need to start looking a lot harder at apps that might act…

Counter point: Materals which are needed/useful for education should be provided by the school and used at the teacher's discretion under their supervision. A personal smartphone shouldn't have any place in classroom activities since it is an obvious distraction and not equally accessible to all students.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#206

Post by swiftcoder »

torpfactory wrote: post #70
GuB-42 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is: smartphones exist. The young adults these children will become will live in a world where smartphones are an essential part of their life. Using a smartphone is a practical skill. That's why I don't think banning smartphones is the best idea. It is probably better than unrestricted access, but I feel that school should teach how to use them well instead. It is a bit like with calculators, there are clas…

What’s the skill though? Most everything you do on a smartphone is trivially easy thanks to all those hard working app developers. We all know from experience that the vast majority of actual phone time is spent consuming some kind of media. I’m not at all worried about kids not learning to use a smartphone well enough- that part will sort itself out. It’s all the other (boring) skills that get pushed aside in the mi…

I think there might be something to be said for the idea of teaching computer literacy on smartphones. There's often a real gap in comprehension of conceptual computer use in those who grew up in the age of ambient smartphones/socialmedia/etc.

That smartphone one only uses for TikTok is still 100x more powerful than any computer we had access to at that age, and it can do real work (just so long as you look beyond the consumption apps).

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#207

Post by clydethefrog »

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #161

Austria did too.

Netherlands too. They are also banned during breaks. Schools where the ban had been implemented reported more concentration of students in class and more social interaction between students. Various studies show that contacts between students are returning, now that they are no longer hunched over their phones. There is much more conversation and social contact.

Dutch Government research: https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/documenten/rapporten/2024/07/12...

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#208

Post by myrmidon »

constantcrying wrote: post #88
myrmidon wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I had the direct comparison when I went to university. It became very clear that I was learning much more and faster. Sure, but this should be expected. If you filtered out all children with low interest/performance/support in preschool and just threw them onto a playground, learning rate could also be much faster in school for the rest. But if you want a solid baseline of reading/writing/math/general education for…

>Sure, but this should be expected. If you filtered out all children with low interest/performance/support in preschool and just threw them onto a playground, learning rate could also be much faster in school for the rest. In Germany you have schools for students targeting university. I was in such a school. Every student there was there to get into university.

> In Germany you have schools for students targeting university. I was in such a school. Every student there was there to get into university.

Yes, but if half the class was not smarter than you (by whatever standard), then that segregation was too low to really hit the spot anyway.

My personal experience was the completely opposite: I learned more useful knowledge in school than in university, despite wasting like a year of math on trigonometric sum formulas and similar nonsense; but the baseline for physics/electronics, programming and math was much more applicable and necessary than anything I learned in university (frequently overspecialized and barely useful).

Sure, I also learned a lot during university on my own, but mostly thanks to sufficient free time and personal interest; university itself did not contribute too much there, and this was somewhat similar during school already anyway (most specifically with programming).

To me, it sounds like you suffered from mediocre teachers in school and learn better on your own-- but neither is universal enough to draw system-wide conclusions IMO.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#209

Post by hjgjhyuhy »

alvah wrote: post #166
veeti wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some common themes in the conversation are neoliberal cost cutting, failed attempts at inclusion and immigration. * Finland is a gerontocracy and recent governments have made significant cuts to education and the general wellbeing of younger generations. * Modern schools are increasingly built like open plan offices with dozens of students crammed into "learning spaces" instead of traditional classrooms. This reduces…

In summary, Finland has brought the policies that have caused much destruction in other Western countries into their own education system, where those policies have also caused destruction, much to everyone's amazement.

Yep, this country is no longer that special by European standards. Childcare is still good, but later education and healthcare are very mediocre.

In EU only greeks are less satisfied with the availability of healthcare. Our unemployment rate is pretty similar to Greece and Spain as well. This is what right wing governments want I guess.

Re: Finland Bans Smartphones in Schools

#210

Post by tremon »

constantcrying wrote: post #43
2muchcoffeeman wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know several teachers. So these sorts of comments are always funny. I know math teachers who lack support but continuously attempt to present topics from different POV because some students don’t get it. So some self proclaimed smart person “learned nothing”, and therefore school is a waste of time. At the same time, ignoring that maybe a school or system is indeed not prepared to handle some individuals (which is…

As I wrote below. My most memorable math class was a teacher failing to explain fractions to me, what later became obvious to me was that the teacher did not understand fractions either. I am sure you want to blame me for this, but somehow I went to university and got a degree in (applied) mathematics. So I doubt it was some fundamental problem with me. Everybody is upset when someone tells them they fail at their jo…

Why do you choose to remember that class and not the ones where you learned to write proper English?
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