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Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

bbc.com

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Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#751

Post by shallichange »

emporas wrote: post #682
genewitch wrote: post #630

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a significant part of the population might not even be able to buy food for days. And who's fault is that? Why did europe allow this? Why will the US allow this, eventually?

We will use better technology for electronic transactions. Most of banks worldwide still use COBOL for most (all?) their software infrastructure. You can do as many electronic transactions as you wish without internet or electricity, provided you have something with charged battery. Problem is the transaction cannot be verified without internet, but when internet gets restored, all transactions can be applied. That t…

I see no problem with COBOL. I'd rather have my credit card transaction be processed with 40yo well tested COBOL than Java from the newest intern using copilot.

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#752

Post by celsoazevedo »

ksajadi wrote: post #723

Apparently Europ network came close to shutdown due to frequency drop as the result: https://x.com/shellenberger/status/1916914966663434493?s=46

Is that a reliable source? The guy started blaming this on renewables hours ago even though no one seems to know exactly what happened.

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#753

Post by 7952 »

bob1029 wrote: post #467
mike_hearn wrote: post #319

This sounds big enough to require a black start. Unfortunately, those are slow and difficult. If an entire nation trips offline then every generator station disconnects itself from the grid and the grid itself snaps apart into islands. To bring it back you have to disconnect consumer loads and then re-energize a small set of plants that have dedicated black start capability. Thermal plants require energy to start up…

> Thermal plants require energy to start up It's not just about the power. System components cannot be brought to operating temperatures, speeds and pressures faster than mechanical tolerances allow. If a thermal plant is cold & dark, it can take days to ramp it to full production.

Can thermal stations be kept running without any laod?

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#754

Post by rimeice »

MisterTea wrote: post #618
yannvon wrote: post #577

I experienced it first hand in Madrid. This was much scarier than I would have imagined. News travelled extremely slow: phone coverage was just barely enough to receive a couple text messages every 15 minutes or so. News spread on the street, I even saw a group of 20 people hunched around someone owning a hand-held radio in the streets. Just before power was restored, things started to get worse, as the phone coverag…

When the northeast blackout hit in 2003 in NYC I dont remember any panic. We still had house phones and they still worked in the blackout thanks to telcos being legally obligated to give a shit about reliability. I stopped by a friends house and we then went on a walk. Some stores were open and cash was accepted. We hung out later that night and had a few beers. The sky was amazing as there was next to no light pollu…

2003 was over two decades ago. Most people didn’t have mobile phones let alone smart phones. I’ve been in Lisbon today and it’s surreal being 100% cut off from friends and family back home and a big relief power is back on, we’ve become very used to and reliant on seamless instant connection. Our mindsets and how we live our lives with that instant communication is totally different to 22 years ago.

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#755

Post by signatoremo »

Xelbair wrote: post #581
roughly wrote: post #500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, this is the turkey’s dilemma - life on a farm is a lot better than life in the wild for 51 out of the 52 weeks of the year. Most of our modern economy and systems are built to reduce redundancy and buffers - ever since the era of “just in time” manufacturing, we’ve done our best to strip out any “fat” from our systems to reduce costs. Consequently, any time we face anything but the most idealized conditions, th…

"Just in time" is a phrase I hate with vehement passion. You aren't optimizing the system, you're reducing safety marigns - and consequences are usually similar to Challanger. This is a solution that teenager put in management position would think of(along with hire more people as solution to inefficient processes), not a paid professional. Systems like electric grid, internal water management (anti-flood) shouldn't…

JIT isn’t about reducing safety margin. It was pioneered by Japanese companies, namely Toyota. They are known for risk adverse, safety first.

> This is a solution that teenager put in management position would think of(along with hire more people as solution to inefficient processes), not a paid professional.

What kind of comment is this? Toyota has been using and refining it for decades. It wasn’t invented yesterday by some “teenagers”. Such a state of HN’s comment section.

JIT is definitely not perfect as exposed during the Covid period, but it isn’t without merits and its goal isn’t “reducing safety margin”.

Then we have JIT in computing, such as JVM.

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#756

Post by megous »

megous wrote: post #335
belter wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this is a trial for how a Carrington event will look like.

I just look to Gaza strip as an example how society continues operating under extreme adversity from the western powers, incl. total lack of electricity distribution for more than a year and a half and full blockade of water, food, and medicine. No need for imaginary scenarios.

Eg. https://www.dropsitenews.com/p/palestinians-gaza-create-surv...

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#757

Post by j1elo »

ithkuil wrote: post #647
genewitch wrote: post #630

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a significant part of the population might not even be able to buy food for days. And who's fault is that? Why did europe allow this? Why will the US allow this, eventually?

I don't know but I find it very practical to not carry piles of cash in my pocket and home and know that we're less likely to get robbed just because of the cash we have. I don't know how true the relationship between the cashless lifestyle and safety actually is, but it works and I feel ok; I'm not sure that the prospect of a few hours of national blackout once in 20 years will make me change my mind significantly.

Today I was able to walk into a grocery store, pay for food, and go home to have a warm lunch (having a gas stove also helped tremendously). The matter was having a 10€ note at home. Not what I'd call "piles of cash".

As an added benefit, no bank knows where I bought and when, which I find is a great advantage over the alternatives. (I also use Gpay; this comes from someone who just found a good middle point without forgetting about the more reliable, physical and privacy friendly option)

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#758

Post by psunavy03 »

lisper wrote: post #744
tpmoney wrote: post #716

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The words "it's a miracle it works at all" routinely popped up in those conversations, which is... something you don't want to hear about any sort of power generation - especially not nuclear - but it's true. Funny thing is, those are the exact words I use when talking to people about networking. And realistically anytime I dig deep into the underlying details of any big enough system I walk away with that impressi…

> those are the exact words I use when talking to people about networking Or the U.S. financial system. Or civilization in general.

It ultimately comes down to shared norms, shared expectations, and trust.

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#759

Post by LunaSea »

genewitch wrote: post #630
the_duke wrote: post #520

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to highlight this: the last significant power outage in Western/middle Europe was 2003. [1] That's 20 years without any significant problems in the grid, apart from small localized outages. It's not hard to start taking things for granted if it works perfectly for 20 years. Many people don't even have cash anymore, either in their wallet or at home. In case of a longer power outage a significant part of the popu…

> a significant part of the population might not even be able to buy food for days. And who's fault is that? Why did europe allow this? Why will the US allow this, eventually?

Anti tax evasion and money laundering measures

Re: Widespread power outage in Spain and Portugal

#760

Post by mikewarot »

0xbadcafebee wrote: post #724
lenerdenator wrote: post #610

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember talking to my ex's dad about his job, which involved planning refuels of a large nuclear-powered generation station in the Lower Midwest. The words "it's a miracle it works at all" routinely popped up in those conversations, which is... something you don't want to hear about any sort of power generation - especially not nuclear - but it's true. It's a system basically built to produce "common accidents". I…

If people knew how crappy, insecure, and unreliable nuclear computer systems were, there'd be a lot more existential dread about cyber security

Almost all computers are insecure, not just the systems in nuclear stations.

Most operating systems are based on ambient authority, which is just a disaster waiting to happen.

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