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ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

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Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#851

Post by JackYoustra »

remarkEon wrote: post #784
JackYoustra wrote: post #782

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The +2.6% is hourly pay, not extra hours; it’s the difference between flat wages and one more year of raises. Every credible quasi-experiment, from Denmark’s refugee lottery to U.S. enforcement crackdowns, confirms that more immigrants leave natives at least as well paid, often better off, because firms invest, prices fall and natives climb the job ladder. Shift-share IVs have been combed over by three separate metho…

Yeah I got that part, maybe you're misreading. You seem to be interested in advertising that you've read all this stuff, which is great, a lot of people have. But you aren't really addressing the problem statement, so I'll state it clearly: no one gives a shit about a 2.6% hourly wage increase over 20 years . They don't care because immigration comes with a bunch of other externalities, that are very near term, that…

> Qualitative aspects

name them!

> Haven't read the Mariel study

then stop making short-run supply shock claims

> Cubans just replicated their own economic structures in a hyper-contained locality, with significant ethnic solidarity given a shared history of hardship

Damn if only there was a way to study assimilation. Wait, there is, we have, and if you look a few replies up you'll see that its basically a complete success with sufficient NGO support that vastly boosts social participation.

> If the benefits were so obvious we wouldn't need a team of nerds to tell us that, well, actually your hourly wages do go up ... eventually.

This kind of thinking leads to Trump. Unironically. Handwaving about "if it were real I'd know of it" is what leads to terrible economic policy.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#852

Post by lazyeye »

shadowgovt wrote: post #804
AustinDev wrote: post #569

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They count toward the electoral college in the census. There is some recent analysis that suggests non-citizens give a ~20 seat advantage to 'blue states' in the house and electoral college. I'll see if I can dig up the source. They don't have to vote to provide an electoral advantage.

They should count toward the electoral college in the census. The authority the states hold over the functioning of the federal government should be a function of the number of people the states are responsible for. Purely hypothetically, if red States don't like this they could address the issue by adopting policies that encourage immigrants, undocumented and otherwise, to come to their states.

Or not hypothetically, the govt could just enforce the law as it stands. This appears to be what people voted for.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#853

Post by EasyMark »

tim333 wrote: post #708
briffle wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are also trying to push for an end to birthright citizenship.

Though they'll have a job doing that. 2/3 majority needed to change the constitution.

They're trying to get it to the supreme court and hoping there are enough Trump loyalists there to overturn 250 years of precedent.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#854

Post by EasyMark »

potato3732842 wrote: post #10
clusterfook wrote: post #2

> But for interesting HN discussion... anyone got any juice on why this is happening. Is there orders going down the chain of command from the president to do this sort of thing. Was this behaviour always there but less reported before? Are they more emboldened by the current environment?

Because it's always been happening. If they didn't already have this sort of abuse practiced they wouldn't be so good at it. The ACLU used to write basically the same exact pieces about the DEA Maybe it's 10% or 20% more prevalent or worse, I can't say from my vantage point, but it's a difference of degree, not a categorical one. You read these stories and they read exactly like all the other stories of how all sorts…

Not the same thing. They are rushing people onto planes before the have any hope of seeing a judge, not documenting anything other than "we say so", and sometimes even sending deportees off to prisons well known for mistreatment and even torture of prisoners in El Salvador. This isn't even close to the same thing.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#855

Post by neumann »

NoahZuniga wrote: post #842
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #592

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> every individual involved in this is making a personal choice to let this happen. To be fair, you and I are involved. I'm on vacation in Mexico. You're presumably also doing something comfortable. We've had, in the span of days, a judge arrested in her court room and multiple U.S. citizens--children, no less---illegally detained and deported. It's blowing my mind to say this. But the right is clearly using violence…

> a judge arrested in her court room But she did something illegal? Like while I agree with her ideals, if she did something illegal than she can get arrested.

This is mental. Game you seen the amount of illegal stuff the current administration have done that results in zero arrests? There is bad faith and then there is this argument. As if the role of law is even being remotely adhered to by the current regime.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#856

Post by IG_Semmelweiss »

vessenes wrote: post #283
IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANAL, but interpretation of: "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof" seems critical to make a determination on whether you are correct or not. Take the act of a random french spy who goes to the UK for the purpose of defecting, without express permission of either government. Does that make him a subject to the UK crown? I think the historical outcome of such situation would be crystal-clear.

SCOTUS ruled on this over a hundred years ago, in the case of a child born in the US of Chinese immigrants who went to China in his 30s, and was denied re-entry. Denial theory: Chinese citizens are subject to the Chinese emperor annd therefore aren’t subject to the jurisdiction of the US. SCOTUS response: “LOL”. 6-2 (1 abstention) in favor of him being a citizen. The majority assent lays out pretty clearly that the j…

This is a good example and it puts the current de facto interpretation of the law very friendly towards birthright citizenship.

However, as you well said, this is the interpretation of the amendment at the time based on that particular case.

The SCOTUS ruling is based the understanding of the 14th amendment for that particular case. Laws are re-interpreted based on originalist or expansionist understanding of the law at the time is was written. It could very well be that this was one of the latter examples, and that there is ample evidence of it that simply didn't make it to Ark. A legal scholar will need to do the work to really understand what was the intent of the 14th as it was written, and present its case to SCOTUS to persevere. The administration could really be attempting to reframe without any legal basis, and if so, the EO won't survive, and we will be able to move on with a full understanding of the 14th.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#857

Post by IG_Semmelweiss »

roughly wrote: post #359
IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US hospitals do not have magical pixie dust to grant US citizenship. This is why birthright as a legal concept is a diminishment of citizenship for all those who hold it. Parents pass on the shared history, values, and national culture to their kids. Parents are those who give value to US citizenship. Not coming out of a belly, that happens to be inside a US hospital.

> Parents pass on the shared history, values, and national culture to their kids. Except our nation’s shared history, values, and national culture is that we’re a nation of immigrants, a melting pot of global cultures, a refuge for those in need, and a place where anyone can come to seek their fortune, so obviously American parents haven’t been passing on those values to their children if we’re still having this deba…

Yes. We are a nation of immigrants. But you are using the word "immigrant" very loosely. Illegal alien != immigrant. Today, the first 2 acts of an illegal alien arriving in this country are (1) breaking the law (2) lying on an application, another crime. This is wildly different from historical migrants.

In fact, all immigrants who came into this country, actually passed tests (education, work exp, english, etc) before being allowed in. Even in Ellis island at the height of the immigration boom, immigrants who could not support themselves, were sick, etc, were turned around [1]

So yes, we are a nation of immigrants, not a nation of illegal aliens

[1] https://www.nps.gov/elis/learn/historyculture/index.htm

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#858

Post by thephyber »

remarkEon wrote: post #585
blinky81 wrote: post #354

I cannot for the life of me understand why Americans have such a problem with other people coming here to seek a better life. Half this country has been tricked into seeing hardworking immigrants as a threat to their safety and livelihood — but by all metrics, immigrants are a net positive to society. I also take issue with the idea that this extreme exclusionary mindset is somehow new to America. A lot of people fra…

It's many different things, but scale and time horizon is certainly one of them. The scale of immigration over just the last 30 years is truly unprecedented, and will have political impacts for the next 50. The share of the population that is foreign born is up to 15% (likely much higher, since it's difficult to actually count illegal immigrants), which is the first time since the mid 19th century it's reached that l…

> which is the first time since the mid 19th century it's reached that level

The percentage of foreign born in the US from The Civil War until WW1 was always between 13%-15% which is comparable to now.[1]

You’re trying so hard to make a point, you’re veering into lie territory.

[1] https://www.migrationpolicy.org/programs/data-hub/charts/imm...

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#859

Post by remarkEon »

JackYoustra wrote: post #851
remarkEon wrote: post #784

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I got that part, maybe you're misreading. You seem to be interested in advertising that you've read all this stuff, which is great, a lot of people have. But you aren't really addressing the problem statement, so I'll state it clearly: no one gives a shit about a 2.6% hourly wage increase over 20 years . They don't care because immigration comes with a bunch of other externalities, that are very near term, that…

> Qualitative aspects name them! > Haven't read the Mariel study then stop making short-run supply shock claims > Cubans just replicated their own economic structures in a hyper-contained locality, with significant ethnic solidarity given a shared history of hardship Damn if only there was a way to study assimilation. Wait, there is, we have, and if you look a few replies up you'll see that its basically a complete s…

Well, if it were real people wouldn’t have voted for Trump. What you’ve presented is, like I keep saying, the most unconvincing tidbit of minor benefits. You seem totally uninterested in addressing the problem, that no one cares about this study and what it says because it’s such a tiny effect on the margins, utterly impossible to translate into daily life.

I’ll keep making whatever claims I want, and you can keep gatekeeping (or attempting to) as much as you like (now I really won’t read the Mariel study, nevermind that you are conditioning success on Uncle Sam handing over money to make it work). The force with which state something as plainly obvious only appears as such inside the spreadsheets, so enjoy them.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#860

Post by HaZeust »

grafmax wrote: post #756
tim333 wrote: post #708

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Though they'll have a job doing that. 2/3 majority needed to change the constitution.

They have other plans such as intimidating the judiciary. That’s just for starters. If you think the uphill battle of a constitutional amendment is going to save us I think you should pay closer attention to what’s been going on.

Screw intimidating the Judiciary, they're just not listening to them anymore at all - specifically for their rulings on our constitutional guarantees for Due Process as "persons" on U.S. soil.

9-0 with the Garcia case, and Trump told them all to kick rocks and that he's there for good - and that he won't "faciliate" and "effectuate" anything per their ruling. The SC's rulings - ESPCIALLY ON CONSITUTIONAL RIGHTS (which is the *REAL* part you all should care about) mean nothing to him when they're inconvenient, now.

The executive doesn't care anymore, and is unchecked. The executive is ROGUE now, the executive is to be dealt with.

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