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ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

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Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#201

Post by harvey9 »

tomrod wrote: post #143
andsoitis wrote: post #84

While the 3 minors are US citizens, their parents are not and the parents can be deported because they are in the country illegally. That means you have the following options: a) deport nobody, i.e. you don't apply the law b) deport just the parents. What do you do with the minor children? Separating them from their parents (different countries) would be cruel. c) deport the entire family, including the US minors. Si…

d) Follow due process and allow the immigration judge to determine e) Amnesty if living here for awhile and not causing a ruckus.[0] US is huge, it needs more people not less. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Reform_and_Control...

E was what the Democrats have offered and it lost them the last election

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#202

Post by tzs »

bko wrote: post #154
anikan_vader wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Due Process is being denied to US citizens, who are being removed from the country without the opportunity for them or their parents to consult an attorney.

From Claude > According to a Migration Policy Institute report, the deportation system dramatically changed over the past 19 years - moving from a judicial system prior to 1996 where most people facing deportation had immigration court hearings, to a system during Obama's administration where 75 percent of people removed did not see a judge before being deported. You have to understand that most what you read about o…

That's about non-citizen immigrants. What does it have to do with deporting US citizens without due process?

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#203

Post by rsyring »

elmerfud wrote: post #5
clusterfook wrote: post #2

> But for interesting HN discussion... anyone got any juice on why this is happening. Is there orders going down the chain of command from the president to do this sort of thing. Was this behaviour always there but less reported before? Are they more emboldened by the current environment?

Your last statement is correct. They are just emboldened by the current political environment. Any law enforcement has a problem where all they see is criminals all day everyday, now we know they aren't always criminals, but that's their view point. There should be sufficient checks and balances to ensure that due process is still upheld. What we're seeing now is the lack of checks because law enforcement feels they…

Without qualified immunity, no one in their right mind would want to work in law enforcement. LE would become an easy target for malicious litigation where the cost/effort to defend would, itself, be the weapon, regardless of whether or not the lawsuits were won.

LE personnel would have to get insurance, like doctors, which would be crazy expensive and, considering their pay scale, unaffordable.

I don't like some of the implications of qualified immunity, but I understand why it's there and needed.

I think the only real solution to LE abuses is criminal accountability and prosecution. We already have the laws and processes in place to make that happen. It's hindered by the tribal nature of the human condition and I'm not sure you get around that very easily, at least, not at scale.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#204

Post by IG_Semmelweiss »

whimsicalism wrote: post #193
IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, the US needs to resolve its issue of citizenship. It has been proposed that the US citizenship model was always like the Swiss model - you could only be a citizen if you were born of at least 1 citizen (naturalized or otherwise). For reasons I'm not clear, this has not been strictly enforced for some time. Instead we defaulted to "anyone born in a US hospital is a citizen" Then, as welfare, lack of law enforce…

Let's remind ourselves of the text of the 14th amendment: “All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.” > It has been proposed that the US citizenship model was always like the Swiss model - you could only be a citizen if you were born of at least 1 citizen (naturalized or otherwise). For reasons…

IANAL, but interpretation of:

"and subject to the jurisdiction thereof"

seems critical to make a determination on whether you are correct or not.

Take the act of a random french spy who goes to the UK for the purpose of defecting, without express permission of either government. Does that make him a subject to the UK crown? I think the historical outcome of such situation would be crystal-clear.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#205

Post by whimsicalism »

hartator wrote: post #21
potato3732842 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's always been happening. If they didn't already have this sort of abuse practiced they wouldn't be so good at it. The ACLU used to write basically the same exact pieces about the DEA Maybe it's 10% or 20% more prevalent or worse, I can't say from my vantage point, but it's a difference of degree, not a categorical one. You read these stories and they read exactly like all the other stories of how all sorts…

Yes, nothing much changed law-wise. No due process at the borders is a shame both now and before, but hopefully this time there is a willingness to change things. Probably not at the next swing of power.

It is genuinely an extremely difficult challenge to manage illegal crossings if every individual must be processed through the full U.S. legal system which has massive resourcing and backlog problems (3m+ cases).

Voters across the political spectrum have made it unmistakably clear — in poll after poll — that they are deeply dissatisfied with the current rate of illegal and asylum-seeking entries.

Is there a morally permissible way to enact their will?

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#206

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

southernplaces7 wrote: post #108
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Because it's always been happening. I don't like this kind of response because it's basically kind of an assumption, and you don't really give any evidence for it. On one hand, sure, abuses by people in positions of power have always happened, so if you're just making a general argument that enforcement authorities abuse power, I mean yeah, human nature. But this article is making some specific points: 1. Those who…

>I don't like this kind of response because it's basically kind of an assumption, and you don't really give any evidence for it. Whether you like it or not, it has indeed been happening for a long time, and under multiple administrations from either party. If you're interested in the tragedy of it all enough to care, then go look these cases up instead of first accusing someone of lying because they might be smearing…

This is like the third or fourth response I've seen that keeps making the same assertion with no evidence to back up their position. So I'll be very clear on what I think is new and not just "more of the same":

1. The deliberate attempts to deny due process by scheduling deportations before filed writs can be responded to in court.

2. The deportation of US minor citizen children as a matter of policy.

If you have any evidence of the above by non-Trump administrations, again as a matter of policy, I'm all ears. Everything else is just "feels".

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#207

Post by faster »

firesteelrain wrote: post #65
sanderjd wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the children's citizenship was solely one of birthright Under the US Constitution, this is not a distinction. What you're looking for is just "the children's citizenship" without this qualifier that signifies nothing under the law. The better alternative is to aggressively enforce employment laws against employers . Immigrants come here and stay here to work.

Agree and proper border control which the previous administration failed to enforce. Step 1 is stop the influx.

The data seem to show that at the end of Biden's term, ICE enforcement actions were very low. But for some reason, the stats page doesn't show Trump's previous term. https://www.ice.gov/statistics

Looking at the most recent DHS yearbook (apples and oranges, but the best I can find so far) at https://ohss.dhs.gov/topics/immigration/yearbook and scaling to match the curve at the ICE stats page, it looks like illegal immigration was way down at the end of Biden's term.

So maybe the influx was already slowed dramatically. I don't think it's possible to stop people from wanting to go to the US, except by making it worse that the places people are leaving. I don't think that's a worthy goal.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#208

Post by pessimizer »

tomrod wrote: post #160
OutOfHere wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what happened here is that the parents were here illegally. The children just had to accompany the parents. I find it quite possible that the children will be allowed back in once they no longer have to depend on their parents.

> here illegally I have to wonder what horrors and shames ones pathway of life must have taken to think a person existing in a space is summarizable as illegal. A person cannot be illegal. They cannot exist in a space illegally. They could enter a space illegally. They could be unauthorized to be in a space. But by simple fact that they exist in the world, if the law makes them illegal to exist, then that law is unju…

> A person cannot be illegal. They cannot exist in a space illegally.

I don't know if this is true, it seems more like a situational demand that you're making but giving it the tone of a fact that you're pointing out.

If you break into my house, and I shoot you while you're doing it, I won't go to prison. So either you're illegal, or I've become so extraordinarily legal that I can shoot people with impunity. Whatever has happened in that hypothetical, I do not think it is unjust. If you also do not, you don't agree with your own premise.

Maybe if you make it rhyme, it will slip past people's reasoning skills better.

> I have to wonder what horrors and shames ones pathway of life

You don't know anyone here. Your self-regard is off the charts.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#209

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

yuliyp wrote: post #126
southernplaces7 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don't like this kind of response because it's basically kind of an assumption, and you don't really give any evidence for it. Whether you like it or not, it has indeed been happening for a long time, and under multiple administrations from either party. If you're interested in the tragedy of it all enough to care, then go look these cases up instead of first accusing someone of lying because they might be smearing…

I guess the question is how frequent it's been. A big part of Trumpism is taking sketchy practices that used to be exceptional and turning them into standard operating procedure, and then claiming "oh look others did this before" I mean, look at Hillary Clinton's emails, extorting of lawfirms, big tech, etc, his ignoring of court orders, etc. All are things that you can look at and say "he's not the first to do this"…

> extorting of lawfirms

When did that happen previously?

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#210

Post by tomrod »

harvey9 wrote: post #201
tomrod wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

d) Follow due process and allow the immigration judge to determine e) Amnesty if living here for awhile and not causing a ruckus.[0] US is huge, it needs more people not less. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_Reform_and_Control...

E was what the Democrats have offered and it lost them the last election

Nah, lies, propaganda, and an incoherent strategy for Biden leading to limited window with Harris lost the last election.

There was a perfectly cromulent immigration plan ready to be voted on by Congress before Trump threw a tantrum because it would have hurt his election chances.

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