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ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

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Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#241

Post by AIPedant »

andsoitis wrote: post #84

While the 3 minors are US citizens, their parents are not and the parents can be deported because they are in the country illegally. That means you have the following options: a) deport nobody, i.e. you don't apply the law b) deport just the parents. What do you do with the minor children? Separating them from their parents (different countries) would be cruel. c) deport the entire family, including the US minors. Si…

"you don't apply the law" is a really dishonest way of phrasing this, when "hit them with a small financial penalty for the civil immigration violation and fast-track their green cards" is also an option.

Illegally immigrating to the US is a civil violation, not a criminal one, and far less of a threat to US safety than going 5mph over the speed limit or running red lights. It is entirely lawful for the executive and judicial branches to use discretion and compassion in cases when under-18 US citizens are involved.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#242

Post by FireBeyond »

__turbobrew__ wrote: post #145
somenameforme wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every day across the world thousands of people are removed from countries around the world for violating immigration laws. Except in cases of where it coincided with criminality, it's always going to be very ugly, because it means somebody had built up a life for themselves somewhere and that is now ended due to them having been born in a different place and then overstayed their permission, or never received such, t…

> Like in this case, what do you propose as an alternative with a precedent that you think could be agreeable to most people? I like how nobody has actually answered this question yet, and have only harped on your birthright comment. The parents are in the US illegally, ICE deports people who are in the US illegally. Presumably the parents didn’t want to leave their USC kids behind so they brought them. I guess possi…

> The parents are in the US illegally

No, the father is not. And when trying to get the mother legal help for her situation was cut off from her. Same when the court tried to get information, ICE ignored it, got her on a plane and then shortly after said “sorry, too late”.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#243

Post by paulryanrogers »

bee_rider wrote: post #234
pessimizer wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the US government seizing the birthright citizen children of undocumented immigrant parents is an extreme position.

What’s the non-extreme option, if the plan is to kick out the non-citizen parents of US citizen children?

Delay deporting the non-citizen parent at least until the citizen children have reasonable accomodations to remain in the country? "The plan" isn't sacred. Humans rights are sacred.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#244

Post by tastyfreeze »

rsyring wrote: post #203
elmerfud wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your last statement is correct. They are just emboldened by the current political environment. Any law enforcement has a problem where all they see is criminals all day everyday, now we know they aren't always criminals, but that's their view point. There should be sufficient checks and balances to ensure that due process is still upheld. What we're seeing now is the lack of checks because law enforcement feels they…

Without qualified immunity, no one in their right mind would want to work in law enforcement. LE would become an easy target for malicious litigation where the cost/effort to defend would, itself, be the weapon, regardless of whether or not the lawsuits were won. LE personnel would have to get insurance, like doctors, which would be crazy expensive and, considering their pay scale, unaffordable. I don't like some of…

Your solution is what qualified immunity prevents.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#245

Post by jedberg »

bee_rider wrote: post #234
pessimizer wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the US government seizing the birthright citizen children of undocumented immigrant parents is an extreme position.

What’s the non-extreme option, if the plan is to kick out the non-citizen parents of US citizen children?

The government has a duty to protect its citizens. So in this case, that would mean finding suitable childcare for the citizen child before making them an orphan.

But ideally we wouldn't be making them orphans.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#246

Post by IG_Semmelweiss »

mrj wrote: post #236
IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IANAL, but interpretation of: "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof" seems critical to make a determination on whether you are correct or not. Take the act of a random french spy who goes to the UK for the purpose of defecting, without express permission of either government. Does that make him a subject to the UK crown? I think the historical outcome of such situation would be crystal-clear.

That's been a fringe legal theory for a while. But historically it's been understood that even if in the country illegally, somebody driving too fast is going to get a ticket, right? If they commit a crime they are thrown in jail. Clearly they are subject to jurisdiction.

but they could very well be deported 1st. There's nothing stopping that, in fact.

The only reason they go to jail is because de-facto that is is fair for the victimm in that he/she gets "Restitution" in the form of jail time for the non-citizen, and presumably, the foreign country may even be able to challenge that.

The dejure interpretation may be he should be banished, although that would be unfair to the victim.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#247

Post by FireBeyond »

whimsicalism wrote: post #200
DragonStrength wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is some ability to fight. For instance, I don’t think the child of a US citizen should be deported without consent of their citizen parent or a ruling against that parent. I’d like some assurance my own child won’t be disappeared to another country without my consent.

> I don’t think the child of a US citizen should be deported without consent of their citizen parent or a ruling against that parent. Think it should depend on custody. US courts don't just always favor the custody of the citizen parent.

If only custody and other issues could have been determined h a court, not ICE ignoring the court while it expedited a flight out of the country then said “sorry, too late”.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#248

Post by Erem »

IG_Semmelweiss wrote: post #186
sswatson wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The phrase "solely one of birthright" suggests the diminishment of the citizenship of certain people. That is not how citizenship works: no one is less of a citizen than anyone else. The most objectionable part here — by far — is not the deportation of the parents, but the deportation of citizens and the lack of due process. The alternative being proposed is that if ICE is going to deport the parents of US citizen ch…

US hospitals do not have magical pixie dust to grant US citizenship. This is why birthright as a legal concept is a diminishment of citizenship for all those who hold it. Parents pass on the shared history, values, and national culture to their kids. Parents are those who give value to US citizenship. Not coming out of a belly, that happens to be inside a US hospital.

US constitution thoughtfully disagrees with you, elevating presence on the land at birth over bloodline wrt citizenship.

“All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside.” -US Constitution, 14th Amendment

Quite literally, US hospitals do have that magic pixie dust because they are on the land of this country.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#249

Post by whimsicalism »

tomrod wrote: post #238
whimsicalism wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To what degree do we let the people decide how their republic is structured? Voters have rejected this sort of cosmopolitanism at the ballot box, repeatedly. To suggest that governments should open borders over the wishes of their citizens seems to simply be an object-level misunderstanding over the goals of statecraft.

Repeating a bit, but we already do this between states in the US and in the EU, so clearly it can work in practice.

Because voters decided there was a common interest, cultural identity, etc. and mutually agreed on political integration. Voters clearly do not want a unified Americas.

The purpose of a Republic is to be a stable entity that ensures the welfare of its citizens. It is not to have a single-minded obsession with global welfare at the expense of its own sustainability or the desires of its citizens.

Re: ICE Deports 3 U.S. Citizen Children Held Incommunicado Prior to the Deportation

#250

Post by chasd00 »

tuan wrote: post #129
nikanj wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The previous time the big mad that Obama was (supposedly) not born on the US soil, now the problem is that someone was born in the US. Is there an acceptable way for POC to get citizenship anymore, if it's not by inheritance and it's not by being born in the US?

5mil for a gold card and expedited path to citizenship I’ve heard.

Just like everywhere else.
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