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I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

jeffgeerling.com

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Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#631

Post by follower »

phkahler wrote: post #511
DanielHB wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An appliance could just have blutooth so it can connect to an app on your phone. With the machine not having a direct internet connection, the app can collect diagnostics, metrics and do software updates. Require you to press a button in the machine to pair it to your phone. 99% of the functionality with 0 annoyance and ~0 security/privacy risks.

Yes! I've been thinking about bluetooth and a standard protocol and generic app. You'd get basic gui functionality for any compliant device, showing whatever device specific stuff the manufacturer wants. Kinda of like a bluetooth X-terminal, but way way simpler. Think tkinter over bluetooth, probably sans canvas. A bunch of people will say to just use wifi, make the device a Hotspot, and use your web browser. That's…

> I've been thinking about bluetooth and a standard protocol and generic app.

A long time ago I developed a project called "Handbag[0] for Android"[1] based around a similar concept--it targeted the short-lived "Android Open Accessory Protocol" initially over USB & later also over network/WiFi.

(My project notes from the time mentioned a long-term goal of also supporting Bluetooth but that never eventuated...)

Handbag made use of a "generic" Android app for UI display/interaction and an Arduino library that communicated with the app over a binary protocol.

The app would display various UI widgets such as labels/progress bars to display feedback from the accessory and text inputs/buttons to accept input forwarded to the accessory.

While the project did not take the world by storm, I was reminded when digging up these links that at least one person called the concept genius[2]. :)

----

[0] Because it let you "accessorize your Android phone or tablet". :D

[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20130205135845/http://handbagdev...

[2] https://www.doctormonk.com/2011/11/handbag-android-and-ardui...

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#632

Post by [deleted] »

kube-system wrote: post #630
fluidcruft wrote: post #524

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He asked for no wifi, was sold a no wifi dishwasher and then later changed his mind and wanted wifi after installing it. Where's the misrepresentation?

No, the person above was led to believe that all of the dishwasher's features could be used offline, but that was not the case.

[deleted]

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#633

Post by skuxxlife »

My current Bosch dishwasher that I bought almost 10 years ago does almost all of this (no eco mode or self-clean, though it does have a sanitize cycle which I would guess is effectively the same) with physical buttons and a 7 segment display. All of these “new” features seem so needless. They already solved it, my 10 year old dishwasher is a great dishwasher and I will happily use it until it dies.

I realize that that’s maybe the problem when the line must go up, but I am pretty sick of companies putting most of their efforts towards solving problems that no one actually has instead of doing a simple thing really well.

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#634

Post by wkat4242 »

kube-system wrote: post #202
wkat4242 wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an anti theft feature. Intended to make the phone useless to a thief. It doesn't work very well, thieves manage to get around it somehow (not so much with Apple's version) so it ends up annoying the users more than it does deter thieves. Apple is really really difficult about getting these unlocked. The carriers can't do it, you have to show them proof of purchase and have an enterprise support contract. With…

It is a very good thing that Apple is tough about it, given the high value of the devices, and how people carry them around in public. I very much want my devices to be useless to thieves.

Yes, here in Barcelona which is pretty much pickpocket central, it's always funny to see the tourists going around with their big iPhone XL sticking way out of their back pocket.

At first I used to tell them (the way you would when someone goes around with their backpack wide open) but people were usually like 'mind your own business' so yeah. Better to let them find out the hard way then.

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#635

Post by wkat4242 »

miki123211 wrote: post #446
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's still not clear how this requires Apple to do anything or why it should have anything to do with any cloud service. The IMEI is burned into the phone. They should definitely make it hard to change the IMEI; but they do. If the phone is stolen then the IMEI gets reported as stolen and anyone who tries to activate the phone with a wireless carrier gets caught. Why does Apple or Google need to inconvenience people…

Stolen Imeis aren't always exchanged between carriers, much less internationally. Even if that wasn't the case, as long as there were at least a few decently-sized countries not plugged into the system, that's where the thieves would sell all their devices. Stolen Apple devices are still usable for parts (which is why parts pairing is not always a bad thing), and you can sometimes phish the Apple ID credentials from…

> Stolen Imeis aren't always exchanged between carriers, much less internationally.

Yes these often end up in Eastern Europe where the carriers don't really care about that stuff. And most people can't pay full price for top end phones so there's much more market for this stuff.

Even on legit corporations with tens of thousands of iPhones, Apple still gives you a lot of hassle if you want to get one unlocked. Just so this won't be used as a loophole.

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#636

Post by wkat4242 »

kube-system wrote: post #539
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't this the same problem either way? The enterprising criminal can take a low level job at Apple rather than a low level job at a carrier, which is presumably one of the reasons it hasn't actually worked. And if the problem is that each country is using a different IMEI blacklist then that seems like an obvious thing to fix. There are already treaties and agreements which is how the global phone network operates t…

> The enterprising criminal can take a low level job at Apple rather than a low level job at a carrier To my knowledge, Apple has not had any insider compromise of activation lock. This is why criminals try to phish the credentials from the victim instead.

Yes and even companies that can request it (I worked for one in this role) have to provide extensive documentation.

A phone must be purchased for us (with invoice with serial no) originally, or it must have been enrolled in our corporate MDM before getting locked. And for a while they didn't even accept the latter.

So even if you are at a third party you won't get away with sneaking these through. Which is good, a bit annoying sometimes though when some of our vendors didn't provide serial number invoices. We now require it but during the first years of anti-theft lock it was a bit of an issue and caused a lot of e-waste for us, sadly.

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#637

Post by wkat4242 »

powersnail wrote: post #249
kube-system wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a very good thing that Apple is tough about it, given the high value of the devices, and how people carry them around in public. I very much want my devices to be useless to thieves.

I want to know whether this actually deters thieves. Anecdotally, from what I heard, it seems that phone stealing is very much still a thing in areas with active pickpocketing.

It does because the thieves just want some cash to get a quick drug fix or whatever.

Even if they get $10 for a $1200 iPhone they are happy. And many components can still be salvaged and be worth more than that.

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#638

Post by guybedo »

this discussion is getting big so i've built a summary, here's a few bullet points:

- Cloud-dependent features for essential appliance functions are undesirable.

- Modern appliances are becoming less durable and harder to repair compared to older models.

- There are valid concerns about privacy and data security with internet-connected home appliances.

- Consumer Reports and similar review sites are not always reliable and trustworthy.

- Simple, locally controlled appliances are preferable for core home appliance functionalities.

- Some smart features, like remote notifications and control, can be genuinely useful and convenient for users in certain situations.

- Smart features might offer specific advantages in shared living spaces or for optimizing energy consumption.

- Developing local-first software for appliances is perceived by some as complex and expensive compared to cloud-based solutions.

- The market will naturally adjust to consumer preferences regarding smart features over time.

- For some users, the effort of returning a product might outweigh the inconvenience of dealing with cloud-dependent features.

- Not all Bosch dishwashers require cloud connectivity, and some models are still considered high quality.

the summary can be found here: https://extraakt.com/extraakts/dishwasher-app-dependency

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#639

Post by jrnichols »

We have HomeConnect on our new Thermador appliances. I actually went ahead and installed the iOS app and brought everything into Homebridge. (thinking about switching to Home Assistant, though...)

One of the big reasons that I did it is so I'd know when consumables needed to be replaced. The big hope was it would give me a warning when the fridge water filter was full and make buying the exact part easier.

It has failed to do this one thing. But I can get recipes from within the app. I still have no idea what water filter I need and have to try to find the model number.

If you're going to build a cloud setup for appliances, at least make it useful for the end user, eh?

edit: we actually considered a GE washer/dryer for the smart features until I sat down and realized that I was trying to over complicate laundry. We went with a Speed Queen model instead. My dryer now has two knobs and a button to start it.

Re: I won't connect my dishwasher to your cloud

#640

Post by ryao »

nothercastle wrote: post #179
ryao wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have a Home Depot or Costco near buy that offers free installation and haul away? Most people who get these appliances have the store do all of the work you did.

It’s cheap but it’s not available for 1+ months so you have to live without a dishwasher for a month. Idk about your family but mine would struggle for more than a week without one

I thought delivery only took a few days. Where are you that it is a month?
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