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TUI editor and Vim/Neovim alternative

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Re: TUI editor and Vim/Neovim alternative

#51

Post by tauraamui »

pmarreck wrote: post #49
tauraamui wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been finding it perfectly suitable for this and other projects. Have you updated your point of view after recently attempting to write and profile a non trivial program?

https://chatgpt.com/share/67e29912-bc64-8004-be75-3d0df11d07... I have a toddler demanding 99% of my free time so I apologize in advance for the LLM shortcut but this looks correct based on my experience

This AI answer is mostly referencing sources between 2020-2023. The only exception is an article written from last year, which itself admits "Anyone evaluating V for use today should obviously make judgement based on the language's current state.", but doesn't actually do that, it itself regurgitates points from other sources made multiple years ago. I think the recommendation I give is my staple "ABCs". Assume nothing, believe no-one, check everything.

Re: TUI editor and Vim/Neovim alternative

#52

Post by pmarreck »

tauraamui wrote: post #51
pmarreck wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://chatgpt.com/share/67e29912-bc64-8004-be75-3d0df11d07... I have a toddler demanding 99% of my free time so I apologize in advance for the LLM shortcut but this looks correct based on my experience

This AI answer is mostly referencing sources between 2020-2023. The only exception is an article written from last year, which itself admits "Anyone evaluating V for use today should obviously make judgement based on the language's current state.", but doesn't actually do that, it itself regurgitates points from other sources made multiple years ago. I think the recommendation I give is my staple "ABCs". Assume nothi…

I love that ABC thing and will be forced to remember it!

Good counterpoints. I did investigate it just a few months ago but then found criticisms about its translation of V to C being quite subpar, but eh

Re: TUI editor and Vim/Neovim alternative

#53

Post by imiric »

amedvednikov wrote: post #48
imiric wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, hello again. :) I have no desire to get into a discussion. You can find plenty of details in feedback from people who have given your language a try over the years. Here's a blog post from September 2024[1]. A quick glance at the open issues yields [2], and many others if you search for "immutable". To be fair, open issues are a sign of interest and people wanting to move the project forward, which is good. I thi…

Such discussions are always the same. You say there are lots of issues, but can never list one. And you point to articles that complain about V using libc or that C2V was released in 2022 and not earlier. It's 2025! Our documentation is very vast and up-to-date and we try to keep it up-to-date. So if you say it's wrong/missing/outdated, you could post a couple of examples, so that we can fix it. That shouldn't be har…

Like I said, I didn't want to get into a discussion. This is not the appropriate forum to discuss bug reports. I was simply sharing my experience with the project, which admittedly could be outdated by now, but those were my impressions from a few months ago.

What I don't appreciate is the implication that I'm fabricating this, or that I'm biased, as OP accused me of upthread. I think that the defensive stance that you and some of the people in the V community[1] have historically taken when faced with any sort of criticism continues to be detrimental to your project. Whether the criticism is a misconception or a flaw in the project, if a user is confused it's still on you to address that with documentation, a bugfix, or a friendly response, if nothing else. Most people are not actively making up issues for some Machiavellian reason. This "us vs them" mentality is barbaric.

As for users telling you what is wrong, it's delusional to think that it's somehow their responsibility and that it shouldn't be hard. Creating a bug report that clearly explains the issue requires time and effort. And what is to be gained from that if it's only going to be met with defensive arguments and hostility? Like I said, most people will not bother with this, and you should expect that most issues will not be reported. Most users will simply move on, but they will remember they had a bad experience.

Yes, projects in early stages have many bugs. All projects do. But maybe it would be wise to focus on stabilizing the core features the project claims to have, before moving on to building editors and operating systems with it? After 5 years there shouldn't be any confusion and unexpected behavior of core functionality.

The work done on V is truly impressive, and I do wish the language was successful. But I think that realigning some priorities, being honest about what works now and how well it works, and a major shift in tone from maintainers to users, would go a long way towards earning back the trust the project lacks. Good luck!

[1]: https://github.com/vlang/v/discussions/17122#discussioncomme...

Re: TUI editor and Vim/Neovim alternative

#54

Post by tauraamui »

imiric wrote: post #53
amedvednikov wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such discussions are always the same. You say there are lots of issues, but can never list one. And you point to articles that complain about V using libc or that C2V was released in 2022 and not earlier. It's 2025! Our documentation is very vast and up-to-date and we try to keep it up-to-date. So if you say it's wrong/missing/outdated, you could post a couple of examples, so that we can fix it. That shouldn't be har…

Like I said, I didn't want to get into a discussion. This is not the appropriate forum to discuss bug reports. I was simply sharing my experience with the project, which admittedly could be outdated by now, but those were my impressions from a few months ago. What I don't appreciate is the implication that I'm fabricating this, or that I'm biased, as OP accused me of upthread. I think that the defensive stance that y…

I didn't mean to accuse you of being biased, I was just calling you not to be in case you were. I am sorry it came across otherwise. Your point of view is just as valid as anyone else. Also the editor project is completely separate to the main V team, I suppose I help with V itself in my own small way by finding occasional issues and raising them with the core team, but I am not equipped nor frankly interested in putting my own efforts into the language dev itself, it seems pretty well staffed over there atm.

Re: TUI editor and Vim/Neovim alternative

#55

Post by amedvednikov »

imiric wrote: post #53
amedvednikov wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such discussions are always the same. You say there are lots of issues, but can never list one. And you point to articles that complain about V using libc or that C2V was released in 2022 and not earlier. It's 2025! Our documentation is very vast and up-to-date and we try to keep it up-to-date. So if you say it's wrong/missing/outdated, you could post a couple of examples, so that we can fix it. That shouldn't be har…

Like I said, I didn't want to get into a discussion. This is not the appropriate forum to discuss bug reports. I was simply sharing my experience with the project, which admittedly could be outdated by now, but those were my impressions from a few months ago. What I don't appreciate is the implication that I'm fabricating this, or that I'm biased, as OP accused me of upthread. I think that the defensive stance that y…

A lot of text, you didn't answer my simple questions though:

> Can you list any weird behavior/bugs that lead to frustration and confusion?

> And examples of the documentation being outdated/wrong?

Since you wrote

> The documentation is outdated, missing or wrong.

> using it for any real world project is an exercise in frustration and confusion

that shouldn't be hard

People that build the OS don't work on the compiler, not sure what that was about.

Re: TUI editor and Vim/Neovim alternative

#56

Post by amedvednikov »

pmarreck wrote: post #52
tauraamui wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This AI answer is mostly referencing sources between 2020-2023. The only exception is an article written from last year, which itself admits "Anyone evaluating V for use today should obviously make judgement based on the language's current state.", but doesn't actually do that, it itself regurgitates points from other sources made multiple years ago. I think the recommendation I give is my staple "ABCs". Assume nothi…

I love that ABC thing and will be forced to remember it! Good counterpoints. I did investigate it just a few months ago but then found criticisms about its translation of V to C being quite subpar, but eh

Legit interested, what's subpar about the translation?

Re: TUI editor and Vim/Neovim alternative

#57

Post by baranul »

tauraamui wrote: post #17

Thank you everyone for commenting and sharing your thoughts regarding my project! I'm aware of the history of V and it's less than stellar reputation in the beginning. I really hope this comment section doesn't devolve into yet another stream of people regurgitating blog posts from over 5 years ago. I evaluate languages and their suitability for projects by just my personal experience using them. Does it do what I ne…

Great project. Something else, that needs to be said, is that you should not allow others to make you feel ashamed for using programming languages that you like. No reason to succumb to others who are trying to force switching to what they are pushing. It's your project and your time, not theirs.

Re: TUI editor and Vim/Neovim alternative

#58

Post by baranul »

imiric wrote: post #11
dharmab wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

V is pre-1.0, and you have to install it by compiling it from source. I'm very excited about V. It's the language I wish Go was.

V has good ideas on paper, but most of its claimed features are aspirational. Actually using it for any real world project is an exercise in frustration and confusion, since you're never sure if the weird behavior is intentional or a bug. The documentation is outdated, missing or wrong. The implementation is a mess, even in its pre-1.0 state. Most projects written in it[1] are either demos or abandonware. Much has be…

Many would argue those aren't real reviewers. It has been mentioned that these persons behind the "V Language Review" series don't review other programming languages and are very specifically targeting V.

It is easy to check and see that Zig, Go, etc... Have thousands of open issues. That, or are lesser known languages like Odin, with less contributors, stars, and vetting. Anybody can take several open issues from any language and create a blog post that pretends the sky is falling.

Real reviewers, would have reviewed multiple other languages and preferably are recognized for doing so. Below are examples of fair and real reviewers of the V language, along with others:

[1] Is V Lang Better Than Go And Rust? Let's Find Out

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=puy77WfM1Tg

[2] V - Best Programming Language to Learn in 2023?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jr1EBaLkjfc

[3] First Impression - V programming language

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmVKerNY-fQ

Re: TUI editor and Vim/Neovim alternative

#59

Post by baranul »

square_usual wrote: post #13
johnisgood wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There has been drama about V and its creator perhaps? I do not remember what exactly. Could anyone remind me what it was all about? Oh, the vaporware thing? BTW I checked the Patreon page. It says "V 1.0 release is planned for 2020". Might want to change that. :D

V overpromised and underdelivered, and the creator is pretty abrasive and went to war with anyone who criticized it, so most people stopped paying attention to it until it fulfills what was promised.

It would be fair to say that many would disagree or have different opinions about the language and the creator. V's creator has an open discussion for criticism[1], which many other languages don't have.

After reading various related threads, the strange abrasiveness and negativity often seems to be from others, not the other way around.

Clearly, many people are paying attention to V. It is quite popular at GitHub with over 36.2k stars, 2.2k forks, and 775 contributors.

[1] https://github.com/vlang/v/discussions/7610

Re: TUI editor and Vim/Neovim alternative

#60

Post by baranul »

johnisgood wrote: post #42
tauraamui wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They said years ago, when they last took a look. Just a thought, maybe just let all this go, people are complicated, you'll never please everyone. It's not worth the time trying. If anything you're giving them more ammo to prove them right about your attitude to negative takes. I'm not taking sides, just my opinion! :)

I think it is still useful to correct them. The language is not the same as it was a few years ago, it applies to every programming languages (depending on how far we go in time).

Agree. If there is no correction or counter, then this allows a negative narrative or falsehoods to be continually pushed. By people seeing that there is at least another side to the argument, it can promote fact checking, fairness, or open-mindedness.
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