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TUI editor and Vim/Neovim alternative

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Re: TUI editor and Vim/Neovim alternative

#41

Post by imiric »

amedvednikov wrote: post #25
imiric wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

V has good ideas on paper, but most of its claimed features are aspirational. Actually using it for any real world project is an exercise in frustration and confusion, since you're never sure if the weird behavior is intentional or a bug. The documentation is outdated, missing or wrong. The implementation is a mess, even in its pre-1.0 state. Most projects written in it[1] are either demos or abandonware. Much has be…

Can you list any weird behavior/bugs that lead to frustration and confusion? And examples of the documentation being outdated/wrong?

Oh, hello again. :)

I have no desire to get into a discussion. You can find plenty of details in feedback from people who have given your language a try over the years. Here's a blog post from September 2024[1]. A quick glance at the open issues yields [2], and many others if you search for "immutable".

To be fair, open issues are a sign of interest and people wanting to move the project forward, which is good. I think what you're trying to achieve is commendable, and I truly wish a language as you envisioned it existed. But it's really hard to take the project seriously when one of its core features is not well defined and causes confusion after 5 years of existence.

I remember running into similar issues when I tried it last year, but just didn't bother to document or report any of it. You can assume that for every person who creates an issue, there are 10x that amount who don't bother and move on.

[1]: https://justinas.org/the-bizarre-world-of-v

[2]: https://github.com/vlang/v/issues/23509

Re: TUI editor and Vim/Neovim alternative

#42

Post by johnisgood »

tauraamui wrote: post #40
amedvednikov wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The network library doesn't use curl: https://github.com/vlang/v/tree/master/vlib/net

They said years ago, when they last took a look. Just a thought, maybe just let all this go, people are complicated, you'll never please everyone. It's not worth the time trying. If anything you're giving them more ammo to prove them right about your attitude to negative takes. I'm not taking sides, just my opinion! :)

I think it is still useful to correct them. The language is not the same as it was a few years ago, it applies to every programming languages (depending on how far we go in time).

Re: TUI editor and Vim/Neovim alternative

#43

Post by tauraamui »

imiric wrote: post #11
dharmab wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

V is pre-1.0, and you have to install it by compiling it from source. I'm very excited about V. It's the language I wish Go was.

V has good ideas on paper, but most of its claimed features are aspirational. Actually using it for any real world project is an exercise in frustration and confusion, since you're never sure if the weird behavior is intentional or a bug. The documentation is outdated, missing or wrong. The implementation is a mess, even in its pre-1.0 state. Most projects written in it[1] are either demos or abandonware. Much has be…

I've not found any issues with using v for this project, please try and be unbiased and objective and I urge you to try and write a non trivial program and let the results speak for themselves. Up to you!

Re: TUI editor and Vim/Neovim alternative

#44

Post by attentive »

tauraamui wrote: post #24
osmsucks wrote: post #21

Haven't tried it, but it looks nice. Well done to the authors. Reminds me of Flow Control ( https://flow-control.dev/ ), which is really nice and comfortable to use! It looks and feels more mature than a 0.x release.

Haven't heard of this, thanks! I'll definitely be taking a peak at their buffer implementation. Zig was a no go for this project for me due to the lack of concurrency.

I'm not familiar with zig but was surprised by the claim that it lacks concurrency.

Looking into it, it seems to have Async/Await, std.threads and channels.

Re: TUI editor and Vim/Neovim alternative

#45

Post by imiric »

tauraamui wrote: post #43
imiric wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

V has good ideas on paper, but most of its claimed features are aspirational. Actually using it for any real world project is an exercise in frustration and confusion, since you're never sure if the weird behavior is intentional or a bug. The documentation is outdated, missing or wrong. The implementation is a mess, even in its pre-1.0 state. Most projects written in it[1] are either demos or abandonware. Much has be…

I've not found any issues with using v for this project, please try and be unbiased and objective and I urge you to try and write a non trivial program and let the results speak for themselves. Up to you!

Why do you think I'm biased? I'm speaking from my own experience with the language last year. Judging by recent reports from others, there still seems to be a lot of confusion about fundamental features.

Though you've clearly invested much more time and effort into the language than me, so either it's gotten better, we haven't run into the same issues, or we have different thresholds for what constitutes an issue. I'm certainly keeping an eye on V, and I might try it out again in a few years.

Re: TUI editor and Vim/Neovim alternative

#46

Post by tauraamui »

attentive wrote: post #44
tauraamui wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haven't heard of this, thanks! I'll definitely be taking a peak at their buffer implementation. Zig was a no go for this project for me due to the lack of concurrency.

I'm not familiar with zig but was surprised by the claim that it lacks concurrency. Looking into it, it seems to have Async/Await, std.threads and channels.

It's in the docs but apparently doesn't work/isn't there any more. https://ziggit.dev/t/my-thoughts-about-async/4515

Re: TUI editor and Vim/Neovim alternative

#47

Post by amedvednikov »

dharmab wrote: post #38
amedvednikov wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are prebuilt packages you can install from the home page and from the github repo. For example https://github.com/vlang/v/releases/latest/download/v_linux....

Oh, I didn't see it in Homebrew, so I searched for "install V" and found the documentation which only has compiling from source.

Good point. I'll add the homebrew installation method. Maybe some other popular package managers.

V is very easy to install from source and to bootstrap. And it changes fast. So we're not big fans of package managers yet.

Re: TUI editor and Vim/Neovim alternative

#48

Post by amedvednikov »

imiric wrote: post #41
amedvednikov wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you list any weird behavior/bugs that lead to frustration and confusion? And examples of the documentation being outdated/wrong?

Oh, hello again. :) I have no desire to get into a discussion. You can find plenty of details in feedback from people who have given your language a try over the years. Here's a blog post from September 2024[1]. A quick glance at the open issues yields [2], and many others if you search for "immutable". To be fair, open issues are a sign of interest and people wanting to move the project forward, which is good. I thi…

Such discussions are always the same. You say there are lots of issues, but can never list one. And you point to articles that complain about V using libc or that C2V was released in 2022 and not earlier. It's 2025!

Our documentation is very vast and up-to-date and we try to keep it up-to-date. So if you say it's wrong/missing/outdated, you could post a couple of examples, so that we can fix it. That shouldn't be hard for you.

As for an issue you referenced, yes a pre-1.0 language has bugs. Thousands. Like all other pre-1.0 languages being developed. We fix them quickly (~9k fixed, ~800 open)

Re: TUI editor and Vim/Neovim alternative

#49

Post by pmarreck »

tauraamui wrote: post #34
pmarreck wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

keep looking and you’ll see why. chaotic-neutral dictator/chief dev categorizes any criticism (regardless of merit) as trolling and bans; language design far exceeds technical merit of implementation details; basically, things only look good on paper, but fall apart once you get past the shallow end of the pool. I went to Nim instead for similar use-cases.

I've been finding it perfectly suitable for this and other projects. Have you updated your point of view after recently attempting to write and profile a non trivial program?

https://chatgpt.com/share/67e29912-bc64-8004-be75-3d0df11d07...

I have a toddler demanding 99% of my free time so I apologize in advance for the LLM shortcut but this looks correct based on my experience

Re: TUI editor and Vim/Neovim alternative

#50

Post by pmarreck »

amedvednikov wrote: post #33
pmarreck wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

keep looking and you’ll see why. chaotic-neutral dictator/chief dev categorizes any criticism (regardless of merit) as trolling and bans; language design far exceeds technical merit of implementation details; basically, things only look good on paper, but fall apart once you get past the shallow end of the pool. I went to Nim instead for similar use-cases.

Hm V literally has a big discussion called "What don't you like about V / what would you like to be changed?" https://github.com/vlang/v/discussions/7610 What exactly do you think only looks good on paper?

https://chatgpt.com/share/67e29912-bc64-8004-be75-3d0df11d07...

I have a toddler demanding 99% of my free time so I apologize in advance for the LLM shortcut but this looks correct based on my experience

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