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US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

ukrainetoday.org

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Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#831

Post by willvarfar »

Animats wrote: post #801

Sweden will reportedly be supplying Ukraine with Saab-built Gripen fighters.[1][2] Maybe. Apparently Sweden has been holding off on transfer of 14 Gripens while Ukraine was learning to use and service F-16s. The Gripen has advantages for Ukraine. It's a more rugged aircraft, with lower maintenance demands and lower operating cost. It can operate from very basic airstrips and roads. Saab boasts about this.[3] Their pi…

Various components in the Gripen, particularly the engine which Volvo licensed from GE, are from the US and the US has a veto on them. It is currently blocking sale of Gripen to Colombia, for example.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#832

Post by justin66 »

Element_ wrote: post #756

And if the American defense sector wasn't bruised enough from the last month, Elon musk was on social media this weekend claiming he could collapse the Ukranian frontlines by disabling Starlink and insulting the Polish foreign minister for buying Starlink systems... https://bsky.app/profile/tatarigami.bsky.social/post/3ljxhgc... https://bsky.app/profile/tendar.bsky.social/post/3ljx3esi74k...

Musk might not value Poland’s patronage but the rest of the American defense industry certainly does. Poland is a huge buyer of arms.

I can’t imagine what the internal struggles look like right now, but it definitely hasn’t dawned on most of the Trump people that whatever budgetary gains they make by randomly firing people will be offset - to put it mildly - by the effect fucking up the arms export market will have on the federal budget.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#833

Post by abe_m »

ta988 wrote: post #228

And the story continues. This means that no country will want to buy F16s. If you don't get support they are useless. They are eroding really fast the US shine and trust in the world. This is going to have a massive effect on the US economy, internal consumption will not save it. This is the end of an empire while its rich kings are golfing every weekend on the taxpayer dime using federal and local resources. I am re…

I think Ukraine is a bit unique in how they got the jets. Since they were given the jets during a war, there wasn't much negotiation involved, relative to a country trying to buy plane in peace-time.

In normal peace-time procurement, there is usually significant locally made content required, plus much deeper training. I'd suspect that countries who acquire arms in that way are much more able to continue without US support.

When Iran was still in the US good graces, they bought a bunch of F14s. After their 1979 revolution, they kept operating their F14s. The US actually retired and destroyed all their F14s during the retirement to prevent spares from finding their way to Iran.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#834

Post by rapjr9 »

throw__away7391 wrote: post #766
addicted wrote: post #578

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can any reasonable national leader justify building their military on American systems anymore? Especially now that the U.S. government is also talking about not living up to its NATO obligations. This is not gonna hurt the rest of the world. Defense is where the U.S. exports a lot. So cutting back on U.S. weaponry will only help other nations. The same is true of Tech. Currently the tech industry is global, but…

I think the administration is gambling on being able to consolidate global power before anyone is going to have a chance to build anything. Europe is completely reliant on the US and US technology for defense right now, these systems took decades and trillions of dollars to build and refine, and an 800 billion EUR investment does not magically create a military industrial complex overnight. Decades ago in my early ca…

>Europe stops buying F35s? Trump tells Europe that if they don't buy them he's going to sell them to Russia.

Actually Europe would stop supplying components for the F-35's so the US would not be able to build any more or keep the ones they have working, let alone sell them to Russia. Russia would never buy them anyway, how could they trust that the next US president wouldn't pull the plug on spare parts? Would they trust that Trump is going to become dictator for life? (And what happens after he dies?) Russia has their own fighters that may not be quite as capable in some ways, but are good enough. Russia sells jet fighters themselves, they do not buy them.

>Europe is completely reliant on the US and US technology for defense right now, these systems took decades and trillions of dollars to build and refine, and an 800 billion EUR investment does not magically create a military industrial complex overnight.

Europe already has a large local military industrial complex. Half of what Ukraine has received has come from Europe. They would only have to expand what they have, not develop new technologies, except perhaps for a replacement for the Patriot missile system. They'd get a boost from converting their existing factories from building US weapons components to building EU weapons components as well.

I'm actually surprised that the US military industrial complex (MIC) is not screaming bloody murder about some of this. They stand to lose sales of replacement weapons for those sent to Ukraine, to lose support contracts for F-16's, and to lose a whole lot more if the US pulls out of NATO. Even if the US does not pull out of NATO, the NATO countries have already started investing in their own defense industries, which is going to severely cut into US MIC profits. They should be terrified.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#835

Post by tenpies »

tananaev wrote: post #165

Build trust for a hundred years. Then flush it down the drain in two months.

That's certainly one take, but I suspect historians will actually link the beginning of this trend to the European/Western reactions to Russia in February of 2022.

It could be framed as "cancel culture overruled the courts". The second Putin became the "literally Hitler" of the moment well anything could be done - even things they didn't do when actual Hitler was around.

This meant extra-judicial seizures including "preventive" seizures. No law was broken or sanction placed yet, but they're going to seize your assets now and figure out how to make it "legal" later on.

Even the Swiss - neutral during WW2 - abandoned over two centuries of neutrality and went along with the EU in this.

The message these countries sent was clear: if you ever oppose us, rule of law will not protect you.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#836

Post by jm4 »

throwaway48476 wrote: post #823
lucasyvas wrote: post #315

I find some of the comments I’ve read today in this thread somewhat enlightening - there is intelligent conversation about the capabilities of the American hardware and its software. The sophistication of the F-35 cannot be debated. But the rest of the world doesn’t trust the US anymore, so it doesn’t matter how good it is - people would gladly explore a worse product because they see it as lower risk. That’s the rea…

The F35 was an enormously expensive program only possible by increasing the production run through sales to partners/allies. It was predicated on a defense model currently burning down.

Absolutely. This isn’t just about the F16 and F35 either. It effectively ends or drastically changes the upcoming NGAD before they even get started. Any previous sales projections are irrelevant in a world where the USA has essentially remotely disabled an ally’s fighter jets without cause. I wouldn’t be surprised if they have to redesign major components of the NGAD in light of a budget that looks drastically different than it did a month ago.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#837

Post by whymeogod »

altacc wrote: post #668
nxm wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sigh… a few jets can’t compare to level of aid American tax payer has given the past few years. More than OK with France finally doing something.

The US' contribution has been incredibly significant and the war would have gone very differently without US support but the idea that the US has contributed most money is false and driven by hubris. There's various ways of tracking support and by many metrics there are European countries that have given more than the US once you account for population & GDP. It gets more complicated for EU members as the EU has give…

Yes, this point should be emphasized more. The aid the US gave Ukraine was the US government buying expensive things from US companies. The money stayed in the US, created US jobs and US economic growth.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#839

Post by throwaway48476 »

quelup wrote: post #829

The comments in this thread freak me out. Either the world's media has brainwashed the population into believing America is failing and the 'right' is evil/dumb, or I'm totally delussioned (as an American) for seeing mostly good in what the current administration is doing. Both are terrifying.

What exactly is the good here?
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