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US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

ukrainetoday.org

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Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#821

Post by vanviegen »

unethical_ban wrote: post #806
mmcnl wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether there is a kill switch or not is somewhat irrelevant. There is a larger than nonzero chance that there is a kill switch, and the US cannot be trusted anymore. So we have to assume there is a kill switch.

With absolutely no military experience, I find this thought process hard to believe. Namely that the existence of backdoors is hard to conceal forever, and that their discovery would do worse damage than what Trump is doing now. Given most administrations seemed interested in maintaining friendship with Europe, I don't see the strategic benefit.

> I don't see the strategic benefit.

Selling expensive weapons that can never be used against oneself sounds like a pretty significant strategic benefit to me. Are there risks? Sure, but the US could just shrug if exposed. A kill switch seems likely.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#822

Post by nullstyle »

betteryourweb wrote: post #802
ta988 wrote: post #228

And the story continues. This means that no country will want to buy F16s. If you don't get support they are useless. They are eroding really fast the US shine and trust in the world. This is going to have a massive effect on the US economy, internal consumption will not save it. This is the end of an empire while its rich kings are golfing every weekend on the taxpayer dime using federal and local resources. I am re…

this is the best news ever... all these other countries keep up conflict to keep the bankers happy while they exploit our resiurces for corrupt politicians and business men... Everyone crying about the economy, but our economy is already shit and extending out these corrupt ppl corrupt directives will only keep us (on the private side) in economic turmoil... We've been in perpetual conflict over 2 decades... It's tim…

If someone thinks that "We've been in perpetual conflict" includes the support being to given to ukraine, in which we send them cluster munitions that we would otherwise have to pay to dismantle while risking virtually zero american armed service member lives, they need to recalibrate their senses because they're not doing a good job.

The Ukrainian people deserve sovereignty, full stop. If someone believes in traditional American values, (e.g. life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness) they should support the fight against russian aggression, and IMO the flimsy and poor arguments being made about focusing on our economy reek of dishonesty when someone thinks about how integrated the US economy is with the world's.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#823

Post by throwaway48476 »

lucasyvas wrote: post #315

I find some of the comments I’ve read today in this thread somewhat enlightening - there is intelligent conversation about the capabilities of the American hardware and its software. The sophistication of the F-35 cannot be debated. But the rest of the world doesn’t trust the US anymore, so it doesn’t matter how good it is - people would gladly explore a worse product because they see it as lower risk. That’s the rea…

The F35 was an enormously expensive program only possible by increasing the production run through sales to partners/allies. It was predicated on a defense model currently burning down.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#824

Post by vincnetas »

user3939382 wrote: post #805
Sammi wrote: post #781

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes because only the USA has agency in this world. Russia didn't choose to invade and Ukrainians didn't choose to defend themselves. As someone from Europe this lack of perspective you showing here is exactly why we are tired of the US atm.

I’d say you lack perspective, this war started in 2014 not when Russia crossed the border. Russia’s agency isn’t going to extend to ignoring existential threats.

russia has very low bar for "existential threats". in this case it was "neighbors living better than we do"

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#825

Post by throwaway48476 »

user3939382 wrote: post #805
Sammi wrote: post #781

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes because only the USA has agency in this world. Russia didn't choose to invade and Ukrainians didn't choose to defend themselves. As someone from Europe this lack of perspective you showing here is exactly why we are tired of the US atm.

I’d say you lack perspective, this war started in 2014 not when Russia crossed the border. Russia’s agency isn’t going to extend to ignoring existential threats.

Russia crossed the border in 2014, they just lied about it then.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#826

Post by polski-g »

azan_ wrote: post #694
ascorbic wrote: post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trump just wants the war to end. Ukraine doesn't want to surrender a chunk of its territory under bad terms, so they won't make a deal. Putin is more than happy to take a deal that means they win. Trump thinks that if he weakens Ukraine then they'll be more willing to take a bad deal. He also doesn't like Ukraine or Zelenskyy, so has no particular desire to do them a favour.

Ukraine already surrendered chunk of its territory few years ago. You think this time it will be different and Russia won't try to take Ukraine again once it rebuilds its military potential?

The difference is that in the future (assuming the mineral deal goes through), there would be US citizens operating mineral franchises on Ukrainian territory. So if Russia harmed them in the future, we would be drawn into an actual war.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#827

Post by KaiserPro »

sovietmudkipz wrote: post #121
postingawayonhn wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

NATO as has existed is already over. Nobody has any faith that the US will follow through on its Article 5 obligations.

If that’s the case that “NATO as has existed is already over” then maybe it is wise for the USA to pull out. Maybe that’s the endgame for Europe? Europe defends Europe (or gets taken over by Russia I guess), and USA isn’t on the hook for its defense anymore.

NATO is there to make sure that the dollar is the dominant trading currency.

NATO is the reason why saudis are trading in dollars.

NATO is the reason that the US has credible nuclear deterrents

NATO is why america doesn't need to have a physical colonial empire in europe (otherwise it'd need to subjugate cyprus, and somewhere like saaremaa, and that costs a shit tonne of money)

NATO isn't about playing for defence of europe, its about keeping the USSR and russia far enough away to keep trading routes open.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#828

Post by whymeogod »

guerrilla wrote: post #820
Animats wrote: post #801

Sweden will reportedly be supplying Ukraine with Saab-built Gripen fighters.[1][2] Maybe. Apparently Sweden has been holding off on transfer of 14 Gripens while Ukraine was learning to use and service F-16s. The Gripen has advantages for Ukraine. It's a more rugged aircraft, with lower maintenance demands and lower operating cost. It can operate from very basic airstrips and roads. Saab boasts about this.[3] Their pi…

Fascinating. What's with the US approach then? In general, it seems like lean forces tend to win. Afghanistan (twice) and Vietnam, for example. The Houthis as another example.

I thought the US lost in Afghanistan and Vietnam. Am I misunderstanding something in your post?

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#829

Post by quelup »

The comments in this thread freak me out. Either the world's media has brainwashed the population into believing America is failing and the 'right' is evil/dumb, or I'm totally delussioned (as an American) for seeing mostly good in what the current administration is doing. Both are terrifying.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#830

Post by throwaway48476 »

jopsen wrote: post #115
tw2347288 wrote: post #114

I'm glad that this discussion finally takes place, even though the discussion is of course flagged. You can flag here, but the mainstream press has picked up the issue: "Can the US switch off Europe’s weapons?" https://www.ft.com/content/1503a69e-13e4-4ee8-9d05-b9ce1f7cc... "Such is the concern that debate has turned to whether the US maintains secret so-called kill switches that would immobilise aircraft and weapons…

Yeah, not delivering additional aid for free is one thing. But retracting support is the nuclear option. Figuratively, because you can probably one do it once, so you better pick a good reason for doing it. And literally, because small European countries do now have to consider nukes.

Not just European countries. Non proliferation is dead.
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