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US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

ukrainetoday.org

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Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#331

Post by regularization »

otherme123 wrote: post #229
regularization wrote: post #150

I am tired of being taxed and having the money go to forever wars in other countries. Slaughtering Palestinians in Gaza, destabilizing Russia, and on and on. At least Trump is winding it down in one place. If Europeans think a hardline against Russia is important, then they can pay for it. We're on the other side of the ocean. This is why the Democrats lost. All they care about is war in the Ukraine. Bernie Sanders s…

A lot of that is inherited from Germany not going fully armed again after II WW, and some capable countries not making nukes (Spain and Italy halted their advanced nuclear programs when the US pressured for it, offering them NATO coverage). How could the USA ask now European countries to not develop nukes? It's in the interest of the USA to cooperate and be part of defensive alliances. When USA goes to their wars and…

> It's in the interest of the USA to cooperate and be part of defensive alliances.

Bulgaria, Estonia, Finland, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland and Romania are in NATO. "Defensive alliance" means the US bankrolls and guarantees their security, there is no two way street with them, they can do nothing for us.

Finland is the most ridiculous case as Stalin could have easily swallowed it up in 1945 if it was in Russia's interest to do so, with little a peep from the West. Them joining NATO in 2023 is an absurdity. A military alliance which should have never existed in the first place - which both Taft and former VP Henry Wallace said in the 1940s.

> Goodbye to the dollar hegemony and the industrial military complex. Goodbye military industrial complex? Hallelujah!

> USA fought hard with the USSR to achieve hegemony

It's more absurd thinking. In 1917 Russia's economy was about Brazil's size. It was like an NFL team playing against a high school team for over a century. Russia barely even had influence over the communists in China.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#332

Post by ascorbic »

pacifika wrote: post #62

What’s the motivation, if the Russians have the strong cards in this upcoming peace negotiation the current administration feels the need to weaken the Ukrainian side equipment? Slice of the minerals?

Trump just wants the war to end. Ukraine doesn't want to surrender a chunk of its territory under bad terms, so they won't make a deal. Putin is more than happy to take a deal that means they win. Trump thinks that if he weakens Ukraine then they'll be more willing to take a bad deal. He also doesn't like Ukraine or Zelenskyy, so has no particular desire to do them a favour.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#333

Post by spiderfarmer »

verandaguy wrote: post #318
epistasis wrote: post #266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I always thought that the American Empire would be dismantled when it elected a leftist steeped in anti-imperialist ideology who wanted to better the world. Nope, turns out that the American Empire is being dismantled by something else entirely. A subset of the populace that feels jealous of those with more and scared of social change, reacting to try to hurt their fellow country men? A megalomaniac leader who is som…

The myth of how much harm "leftists" can do/are doing in the US is probably what got you all here. It's another McCarthyist boogeyman, and it's not even being sold well -- a lot of the marketing's just outright lies, and people are eating that up.

That’s the most frustrating part. What America calls leftists is considered pretty centrist everywhere else. They’re so afraid of empathic policies it’s no wonder the country is falling apart.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#335

Post by ajmurmann »

apwell23 wrote: post #194
rich_sasha wrote: post #3

Right now every buyer of American kit is feverishly evaluating non-US alternatives. Seriously, America, this is like Brexit but 1000x. A voluntary decision, taken with gusto, to chop off arms and legs and ears and fingers and whatnot, cut off the deadwood, be light and free, a lone vessel on the ocean of prosperity, free of the burden of the stupid foreigners who are the sole reason why everything was going wrong.

> Right now every buyer of American kit is feverishly evaluating non-US alternatives. they are doing what they should've been doing this whole time?

It's a big advantage if allies use compatible or identical kit.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#336

Post by yimby2001 »

ta988 wrote: post #228

And the story continues. This means that no country will want to buy F16s. If you don't get support they are useless. They are eroding really fast the US shine and trust in the world. This is going to have a massive effect on the US economy, internal consumption will not save it. This is the end of an empire while its rich kings are golfing every weekend on the taxpayer dime using federal and local resources. I am re…

No one is using fighter jets in this war. Why? And everyone (who knows) knows this: The anti-air technology is too good to field a jet. It will just get shot down. so the Jets are now useless. so there’s no point in supporting useless jets. And no country is going to buy useless jets. But go on and make this political and not about some physical reality of our world.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#337

Post by sillyfluke »

epistasis wrote: post #205
wyldfire wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The agenda that Trump advanced during campaigns was not "cut ourselves off from the rest of the world". Do his supporters really want this? What's the rationale he advances for this stance and the tarrifs? What would a president who was beholden to Russians do once elected? I mean -- what's the point of provoking Canada, of all countries? Canada as the 51st US state would be the new most populous state and would caus…

> Do his supporters really want this? After many long discussions, I can only conclude it less about the values of the supporters and more about their psychology. His supporters want whatever he wants, as long as it means that the right people get bullied. There's not much deeper thought than that. It's very sad to see people that I respected debase their own principles so that they can remain proud Trump supporters.…

>His supporters want whatever he wants, as long as it means that the right people get bullied.

Yeah, pretty much. Everyone in this thread should be able to craft a Trump line that's easily digestible by his base on this point by now. In this specific case it's "I don't want to give US weapons to anyone who won't act in our (my) national interest on every issue." Once you empower him to decide what is or is not in the US national interest, there's not much you need in the way of convincing. It's only when his policies start hurting his voters individually that they'll maybe start questioning whether what Trump claims is American national interest is actually in their own interest or not.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#338

Post by RobotToaster »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #197
RobotToaster wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"It may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal." - Henry Kissinger

Post the rest of the quote. If I recall he was warning against alienating an ally. He didn't want the quote to become true.

Yes, he was basically warning that short termism, and constantly throwing people under the bus, will be bad for American imperialism in the long term.

"Word should be gotten to Nixon that if Thieu meets the same fate as Diem, the word will go out to the nations of the world that it may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal."

Thieu did meet the same fate, well, he wasn't killed, but he was overthrown and lived life in exile as a recluse.

Zelenskyy will almost certainly suffer the same fate.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#339

Post by 2OEH8eoCRo0 »

samcheng wrote: post #234
ta988 wrote: post #228

And the story continues. This means that no country will want to buy F16s. If you don't get support they are useless. They are eroding really fast the US shine and trust in the world. This is going to have a massive effect on the US economy, internal consumption will not save it. This is the end of an empire while its rich kings are golfing every weekend on the taxpayer dime using federal and local resources. I am re…

The best explanation I've heard is that this (almost) half of the US population doesn't care if it hurts a bit, as long as it hurts the other half of the US population more.

My mental model is that it will hurt the S&P500 but benefit the working class.

Re: US Ends Support For Ukrainian F-16s

#340

Post by canuckintime »

baby_souffle wrote: post #271
samcheng wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best explanation I've heard is that this (almost) half of the US population doesn't care if it hurts a bit, as long as it hurts the other half of the US population more.

This is precisely correct. Briefly, the parts of the map that voted for Trump are largely known as flyover country. To oversimplify things, the people in this area have been neglected and talked down to by some portion of the political apparatus as far back as they can remember. In some cases, the vote for Trump wasn't meant to be anything more than punitive. To get a rise out of the politically aligned groups that c…

Flyover states versus costal states is too simplistic and inaccurate. A more accurate reduction is rural+suburban (isolated insular) communities versus urban (integrated diverse) communities.
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