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Buy European Made. Support European Values

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Re: Buy European Made. Support European Values

#181

Post by closewith »

simion314 wrote: post #172
closewith wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I agree. Signal is inherently contrary to the statism en vogue in most European nations at this time, and why they have repeatedly affirmed that they would leave the EU rather than allow user surveillance should Chat Control 2.0 or 3.0 be passed (rather Orwellianly officially named the "Regulation to Prevent and Combat Child Sexual Abuse (Child Sexual Abuse Regulation)".

That was a proposal that did not happen Should we dig up USa stupid proposals? Or dig up actual laws like the USA laws for snooping on people that were revealed by Snowden? A bit offtopic , is it a lw or rule that you are not allowed to call Trump a felon ? And is that constitutional?

> That was a proposal that did not happen

I'm well aware, as I was involved in the effort to block it (on four separate occasions now, and undoubtedly will again).

> Should we dig up USa stupid proposals? Or dig up actual laws like the USA laws for snooping on people that were revealed by Snowden?

The topic of this thread is European values and whether Signal embodies them or not. It's hopefully obvious to anyone interested that the prioritisation of individual freedoms that Signal embodies is not reflective of current European values, given the ever increasing levels of State surveillance across the continent.

That these are also not US values, even though their populace and politicians endlessly claim they are, is not relevant to this discussion.

Re: Buy European Made. Support European Values

#183

Post by FirmwareBurner »

sras-me wrote: post #142
lpcvoid wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The favorite russian playbook, framing people who support Ukraine's right to self defense in face of a genocidal invasion as warmongers. EU security == Ukraine security.

Assuming you are not from Ukraine, how much of your paycheck are you willing to sacrifice for the support for Ukraine, like indefinitely?

The problem is everyone is forced to donate whether they like it or not. It's not something people get to vote for.

Re: Buy European Made. Support European Values

#184

Post by fsflover »

jisnsm wrote: post #158
meijer wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't see it, like the fish who does not see the water.

Very philosophical and completely empty. (Like almost everything in philosophy)

It just means that those values are easier to see when you live in or at least travel to other places and compare.

Re: Buy European Made. Support European Values

#185

Post by DougN7 »

Goto80 wrote: post #37
a12k wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many Americans exist that do not carry the opinion of their government, as do many Russians. I can’t speak for Russia because I have no data, but most Americans don’t carry the opinion of this government.

If that is the case, how did this government get a majority?

A huge number felt they had to vote for the lesser of two bad choices. I think many that voted for Trump were naive and are genuinely surprised at what they are seeing. At least I’d like to think so, despite what you might find on forums.

Re: Buy European Made. Support European Values

#186

Post by AlecSchueler »

mrweasel wrote: post #91
zoul wrote: post #8

Not every european company embodies european values. As an example, Signal is listed as a US company people might want a european replacement for – and yet Signal represents european values much better than many of the alternatives.

You also have the issue that a company like Ecosia is listed as a German company, but their search is powered by Bing and Google, so does it really make much of a difference?

Bing and Google will always be powered by Bing and Google. Ecosia can bootsrap itself with their services until its value is great enough that it can fund itself a solution. That would be the ideal here anyway.

Re: Buy European Made. Support European Values

#187

Post by AlecSchueler »

sras-me wrote: post #161
lpcvoid wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am willing to give 1% indefinitely (that's how much I currently donate monthly) until Ukraine is a free nation.

Fair enough. I suppose it is your decision to donate 1%. But would you like your president to make that decision for you? Would it be okay with it you if they asked you to sacrifice like 60% of your pay towards this cause, that too indefinitely?

> But would you like your president to make that decision for you?

Not without a discussion, of course, and I may disagree with the decision after the discussion, but on the whole I have been happy enough with the parliamentary systems where I have lived within Europe that I can say yes to this.

What would upset me and concern me to no end would be if the premiere went rogue and made these decisions unilaterally while ignoring all other branches of the government.

Re: Buy European Made. Support European Values

#188

Post by AlecSchueler »

FirmwareBurner wrote: post #183
sras-me wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assuming you are not from Ukraine, how much of your paycheck are you willing to sacrifice for the support for Ukraine, like indefinitely?

The problem is everyone is forced to donate whether they like it or not. It's not something people get to vote for.

There will never be a perfect direct democracy but a lot of Europe is pretty good on the democracy index. Of course things could always be better and there are always worries of regression but it's been my experience that I've felt decently represented; I've spoken with my representatives, I've felt heard and I've felt that my views were reflected in debates at the highest levels.

Re: Buy European Made. Support European Values

#189

Post by anal_reactor »

roenxi wrote: post #69
c03 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a great point where nationality does not reflect political values. Many Americans exist that do not carry the opinion of their government, as do many Russians. If a global set of "Don't be an asshole" values could be defined, put into words, shared and progressed, it would have much greater value to a consumer and the world than merely going back to nationalism and protectionism.

> If a global set of "Don't be an asshole" values could be defined, put into words, shared and progressed... Being a cynic, I expect the speeches to start with that then smoothly translate into "and therefore we have to spend more money on waging war in foreign countries". The US is exemplifying some of the best international values right now of trying to find a sharp end to all the meaningless dying we've been seein…

> The US is exemplifying some of the best international values right now of trying to find a sharp end to all the meaningless dying we've been seeing for the last few years.

It's not rape if you agree to it.

Re: Buy European Made. Support European Values

#190

Post by AlecSchueler »

rsynnott wrote: post #96
FirmwareBurner wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Not every european company embodies european values. What even are "European values"? Is there such thing? Every EU country I know has varying values to the other members, that's why we have separate borders, languages, religions, cultures and laws with autonomy over them. The EU is not one-nation one-culture like the US, but an org that doesn't impose any kind of universal values across the different diverse member…

> but an org that doesn't impose any kind of universal values across the different diverse members except some laws that ease trade, labor movement and cooperation and that's it Also human rights, democracy, anti-corruption stuff. Now, as we've seen with Orban, Europe's mechanism for actually _enforcing_ this is basically defective. And peace. Like, the original stated intent of the Coal and Steel Treaty (the EU's ul…

> And peace. Like, the original stated intent of the Coal and Steel Treaty (the EU's ultimate predecessor) was to prevent another European war (largely by making it economically impracticable).

And has a war broken out amongst ECSC/EU countries?

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