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How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

spin.atomicobject.com

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Re: How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

#71

Post by a_bonobo »

pwny wrote: post #35
debacle wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, since this is an Internet forum, the burden of proof is on neither of us and you may be taking things just a bit too seriously. But if you can't be arsed to Google it, here you are: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_psychology http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/SexDifferences.aspx

That wasn't so hard to avoid the guaranteed s *storm that would obviously emerge from claiming one sex was smarter than the other. Also, taking discussions seriously is exactly the reason why I come to HN. I'm sure I'm not alone. That being said, those two links where interesting although they left me with even more questions than when I began. On one hand it's claimed that "The mean IQ scores between men and women v…

I agree with pwny - the little research there is on sex differences in IQ shows a VERY marginal difference, like the second link from above (http://www.iqcomparisonsite.com/SexDifferences.aspx) says:

>It finds that females have a 101.41 mean IQ with a 13.55 standard deviation versus males that have a 103.08 mean IQ with a 14.54 standard deviation

A difference of 2 IQ-points is marginal anyway, but both populations (in this study) have different standard deviations (so the measurements spread out differently), which makes them harder to compare. In the end I'd say, the difference (in this study) is minimal and can be neglected. Edit: I also think that just by repeating the same study with exactly the same participants, the difference will be smaller, non-existant, or women will have a higher IQ. I once did (caution: anecdotal evidence) five IQ-tests on five following days and the results were off by +/- 5 points, just because I was more tired/more awake on the different days.

All in all I'm disappointed by the level of discussion in this whole thread, way to show the world that software-people have no clue of gender-differences.

Re: How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

#72

Post by philwelch »

surrealize wrote: post #66
philwelch wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something is hardly a "gender-specific challenge" when both men and women report running into it, yes?

Yes, both men and women encounter stereotype threat. However, in programming, stereotype threat works mainly against women. So in context, yes, it's gender-specific.

I'd say "stereotype threat" is more of a neurotic-specific thing than anything else.

Re: How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

#73

Post by philwelch »

danilocampos wrote: post #52
droithomme wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, I'm just a pussy and need to man up, you got it. Must have got my sensitive feelings hurt, that's all this is. Very insightful comment, "bro".

Your language reveals much to confirm my initial suspicions. Good luck in your adventures.

You should do a better job reading the comments you reply to. His "language" mirrored the words he said he was harassed with, just as your response mirrored the dismissive attitude behind that harassment.

Re: How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

#74

Post by bethly »

cantastoria wrote: post #69
bethly wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it depends what you mean by "effect". I certainly think I cope with it better because I am aware of what is going on. I'm experienced and successful enough to be confident in my code, and I got there in part by learning about sexism and how it functioned so I could sift what of my personal judgement was about me and my performance from what was about the people around me. The whole experience is very lizard-bra…

Ah I see... From your vocabulary, writing style and misandrist digs I can tell you're a "trained feminist" and I know once that belief system takes hold there's no going back and as such, there's no point in arguing. I'm sorry to have wasted your time. Good luck to you and especially to your colleagues.

Wow. I took the time to engage in good faith, to try to explain what it is like to be me and how that varies from what you seemed to expect.

Now I feel like a shmuck for having assumed the same of you. Glad you found a way to dismiss everything I said so you can keep believing whatever it is you want to believe.

Re: How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

#75

Post by peterwwillis »

michaelt wrote: post #51
peterwwillis wrote: post #38

First let me say that yet again, another blog post that contains little to no science to back up claims; instead, personal feelings and an individual's experience become the standard by which apparently all people experience working in STEM. We should not immediately concede that one person's experience defines an industry, or several. (The "stereotype threat" article is not a compelling enough argument to me that th…

First let me say that yet again, another blog post that contains little to no science to back up claims; instead, personal feelings and an individual's experience become the standard by which apparently all people experience working in STEM. "Stereotype Threat and Women’s Math Performance" by Spencer, Steele and Quinn [1] contains an interesting series of experiments. In the first experiment, test subjects are given…

Yeah, I read the article, as I specified in my comment.

Not every study or set of experiments is foolproof, and the 'results' of ones that are done specifically on a bias, and never replicated, should not be considered some kind of universal truism.

Did you have some point, or argument, or opinion, you were trying to make?

Re: How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

#76

Post by surrealize »

philwelch wrote: post #72
surrealize wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, both men and women encounter stereotype threat. However, in programming, stereotype threat works mainly against women. So in context, yes, it's gender-specific.

I'd say "stereotype threat" is more of a neurotic-specific thing than anything else.

It's well supported experimentally.

Re: How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

#77

Post by michaelt »

peterwwillis wrote: post #75
michaelt wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First let me say that yet again, another blog post that contains little to no science to back up claims; instead, personal feelings and an individual's experience become the standard by which apparently all people experience working in STEM. "Stereotype Threat and Women’s Math Performance" by Spencer, Steele and Quinn [1] contains an interesting series of experiments. In the first experiment, test subjects are given…

Yeah, I read the article, as I specified in my comment. Not every study or set of experiments is foolproof, and the 'results' of ones that are done specifically on a bias, and never replicated, should not be considered some kind of universal truism. Did you have some point, or argument, or opinion, you were trying to make?

Never replicated? How about "Knowing Is Half the Battle Teaching Stereotype Threat as a Means of Improving Women's Math Performance" by Johns, Schmader and Martens [1] ?

Participants were divided into three groups; the first group were told they were getting a problem solving test; the second group were told they were getting a math test for a study of gender differences; the third group were told the same as the second group and that anxiety could be the result of negative stereotypes that are widely known in society and have nothing to do with their actual ability to do well on the test.

As figure 1 on page 4 of the PDF shows, the first group had roughly equal gender performance, in the second group women underperformed, and in the third group performance was roughly equal.

Or why not "Solo status, stereotype threat, and performance expectancies: Their effects on women's performance" by Sekaquaptewa and Thompson [2] - once again, women performed worse in the stereotype threat condition that in the no threat condition.

  Did you have some point, or argument, or opinion, 
  you were trying to make?
Only that your statement that there is little to no science to back up the blog's claims ignores multiple peer-reviewed studies.

[1] http://www.mdecgateway.org/olms/data/resource/9098/Knowing%2... [2] http://j.b.legal.free.fr/Blog/share/Expos%E9s%20M1/Stereotyp...

Re: How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

#78

Post by rademi »

ucee054 wrote: post #40

Maybe we don't need more women in software. Maybe people shouldn't be persuaded to pick careers based on what "society wants" or what demographic ratios "should" be. Maybe we need more women, no, more people to pick the most advantageous careers for them personally.

Once upon a time, computer programming was a job for women, and not for men. So, based on that period of history, we can equivalently suggest: Maybe we don't need more men in software?

(I do not believe either suggestion, not for a second. And I am disturbed that people are so ignorant of history. Both the women subject to stereotype threat and the men suggesting it's a non-issue are making this same kind of mistake. So, instead, I'd like to point out that women are awesomely smart. So deal with it. Please.)

Re: How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

#79

Post by xzqx »

droithomme wrote: post #3

This is an ongoing made up fake crisis. First, I've yet to see any women engineers who have demonstrated they are good at their jobs make this argument. It's mostly bloggers and journalists writing these things. Women engineers who are good don't describe having problems any different from the rest of us. As far as the actual incidents of harassment from asshole managers and socially inept coworkers, I've got the sam…

I am a woman engineer and agree with everything you said, seriously
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