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How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

spin.atomicobject.com

41–50 of 79 posts

Re: How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

#41

This is an ongoing made up fake crisis. First, I've yet to see any women engineers who have demonstrated they are good at their jobs make this argument. It's mostly bloggers and journalists writing these things. Women engineers who are good don't describe having problems any different from the rest of us. As far as the actual incidents of harassment from asshole managers and socially inept coworkers, I've got the sam…

This is an ongoing made up fake crisis

... because ...

I've yet to see

Your personal experience does not form reality. Well, your own reality perhaps, but the rest of us live in a world where the sum of others' experiences prove what is made up or not.

I'm not saying there is a crisis, but you're saying that there isn't just because you haven't heard about it personally. Which is kind of like saying there is no such thing as three-toed sloths because you've never had someone talk to you about seeing one in person.

Re: How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

#42

This is an ongoing made up fake crisis. First, I've yet to see any women engineers who have demonstrated they are good at their jobs make this argument. It's mostly bloggers and journalists writing these things. Women engineers who are good don't describe having problems any different from the rest of us. As far as the actual incidents of harassment from asshole managers and socially inept coworkers, I've got the sam…

If I have understood you correctly... Women don't have unique, unnecessary, gender-specific challenges because once the suits were mean to you? Puzzling reasoning.

Something is hardly a "gender-specific challenge" when both men and women report running into it, yes?

Re: How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

#43
post #4

Why is it so important that we close the gender gap? Why is it so important that we believe that there is no difference in intelligence between men and women? Statistically, men have a wider variance in IQ score than women do. This means that there are likely to be more highly intelligent men than highly intelligent women in a room, and that the most intelligent man in the room is probably more intelligent than the m…

It's not even a question of intelligence, but of interest.

Software development is a low-status profession. Lately it has become more highly paid, largely due to a bubble, which raises the social status and gets feminists upset about the fact that there aren't enough women in the profession. If the bubble bursts and developer pay drops to saner levels, expect the controversy to suddenly go away. Feminists aren't nearly as upset that there aren't very many women in the garbage handling industry, after all.

Re: How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

#44
I'm more interested in the answer to question 3

"Is it even something we ought to be concerned about?(I won’t dignify that last one with an answer.)"

I'm guessing that the reason the author won't dignify the last one with an answer is that she feels the question is rooted in deep sexism, or dismissal of a serious problem. And I'd agree, discrimination and/or stereotyping that leads to women giving up on CS is a serious problem.

However, a slightly less extreme version of this question is important: "is it possible women are finding better professions than software development". As an exercise, consider the case of a young woman who has entered your office to talk about whether she should pursue a career as a programmer or apply to medical school with the ultimate goal of becoming a cardiologist. Make sure you address longevity of careers, pay, stability, social standing, attrition rates from graduate programs, and so forth.

I do think it's very important to ask why women aren't going into CS. To the extent that stereotyping is responsible, yes, we should fight it. It clearly is a factor.

But young women are starting to outperform young men academically. A recent RAND study concluded that young Americans are rationally avoiding PhDs in STEM fields because they are not competitive with the professions (where women are closing the gap rapidly, and in some cases creating a gap that favors women). In this case, avoidance of these fields may simply be one more way that women are making better decisions than men. Programming careers can be very rewarding, but they're hardly the only game in town, so it makes no sense to analyze it in isolation.

If women aren't going into CS, what are they doing instead? Should we be telling young women who choose nursing, law, accounting, and medicine that they would be better off studying CS and becoming programmers? If anything, we might want to encourage young men to look at what young women are doing and learn something from them!

Re: How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

#46
post #40

Maybe we don't need more women in software. Maybe people shouldn't be persuaded to pick careers based on what "society wants" or what demographic ratios "should" be. Maybe we need more women, no, more people to pick the most advantageous careers for them personally.

The entire article is about personal experiences that have prevented people from doing the things that they're interested in. It doesn't say anything about what society wants, or ideal demographic ratios, or whatever.

This isn't about philosophy or ideology, and it's interesting that so many people here are framing it that way.

Re: How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

#48
When women look at tech companies and math departments, they see few women. This activates the stereotype that women aren’t good at math. The stereotype…

Is there any evidence that this is what actually happens? Are all women carrying around these stereotypes with them? It just seems like a "just so" explanation.

Most of the examples in this article aren't of stereotype threat, they're examples of the authors' insecurity and social anxiety about being in tech. I can understand how a women would feel uncomfortable working in large groups of, what are generally socially inept, geeks but that seems like a different problem. This was the money-quote for me:

I remember one instance in particular when I was feeling particularly isolated at our company. “I feel like an outsider! Like the guys don’t want me here because I’m a woman!” I whined to one of my male colleagues. He looked at me and replied, “Well that’s dumb. Of course they want you here. You’re great to work with.”

So essentially this woman has a self-confidence issue. I see little evidence from this article (and the NPR one) that these problems, to the extent that they exist, are just run-of-the-mill social anxiety and nothing more.

Re: How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

#49

This is an ongoing made up fake crisis. First, I've yet to see any women engineers who have demonstrated they are good at their jobs make this argument. It's mostly bloggers and journalists writing these things. Women engineers who are good don't describe having problems any different from the rest of us. As far as the actual incidents of harassment from asshole managers and socially inept coworkers, I've got the sam…

If I have understood you correctly... Women don't have unique, unnecessary, gender-specific challenges because once the suits were mean to you? Puzzling reasoning.

Yep, I'm just a pussy and need to man up, you got it. Must have got my sensitive feelings hurt, that's all this is. Very insightful comment, "bro".

Re: How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

#50

When women look at tech companies and math departments, they see few women. This activates the stereotype that women aren’t good at math. The stereotype… Is there any evidence that this is what actually happens? Are all women carrying around these stereotypes with them? It just seems like a "just so" explanation. Most of the examples in this article aren't of stereotype threat, they're examples of the authors' insecu…

The article links the wikipedia page on stereotype threat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_threat , which has plenty of references to studies demonstrating how this differs from other types of anxiety.
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