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How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

spin.atomicobject.com

61–70 of 79 posts

Re: How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

#61
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a damn good programmer. I have these problems. I am sorry you encountered gender-policing behavior at your last job: that is exactly what I, as a feminist, am trying to fight against for both men and women. Saying that because patriarchy hurts everyone it isn't a problem to be solved, though, is unhelpful. It is a matter of "yes, and": it hurts men and it hurts women measurably more ( https://kuscholarworks.ku.e…

I am a damn good programmer. I have these problems. Do you really start thinking about how bad woman are believed to be at science and math every time you speak to a male colleague or walk into a room full of men? I don't know, I'm asking... The difference between us is that they aren't asking you to do something that is biologically impossible Are you suggesting that male programmer behavior has a biological basis?

It's not that conscious, but every time I walk into a room full of men... hm, the closest analogy I can think of is arriving at what you thought was a fancy dress party only to discover everyone else is in jeans and a t-shirt. Every time I take a deep breath and step into a crowd where people assume I'm from HR or I'm with whatever man I'm chatting with that second.

It's not even that I think about it all the time; it's that I am subtly reminded of it over and over again. It is impossible to forget, because the environment and people around me reproduce them, mostly entirely unintentionally. Even just the lack of women is a subtle, ever-present reminder that I am doing something weird and kind of awkward.

It's not something that is easy to describe. I'd compare and contrast this with, say, science fiction conventions, which are usually 40% women and where I encounter none of the same awkward out-of-place-ness. Still uber-nerdy, still has lots of socially-awkward men, way fewer reminders of how many stereotypes I violated getting there.

As for the biology quip, I apologize for being unclear. I meant that telling me to "man up" would be like telling you to "be a woman": illogical. The only thing I was attributing to biology was gender itself (and even that can be mental, physical, both or neither.)

Re: How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

#62
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article has nothing to do with harassment. As a female in the software industry, I have experienced harassment perhaps once, and it wasn't from my colleagues. Stereotype threat can occur even at 'sane firms'. It has to do with a person's perception of herself and what people might be thinking, not the way others are acting.

The article appeared to be arguing: women underperform because they spend mental effort worrying about stereotype threat. So let's educate them about stereotype threat so they'll be more conscious of it. That sounds obviously counterproductive. Did I misunderstand?

Being able to label that thing that's been interfering with my ability to get my work done is definitely a productive thing.

But I also think there's another, far more useful purpose for educating people suffering from stereotype threat about stereotype threat: they can then put a label to what is keeping them from getting their work done when asking their peers, mentors, or managers for help. And then their peers, mentors, and managers can pay attention to situations that might provoke stereotype threat, try to lessen them, and otherwise show a bit of compassion for the person suffering from it.

I say this personally: learning about stereotype threat cleared a huge communication roadblock I'd been having for years with managers and peers, and as soon as we were on the same page we were actually able to address some of the issues contributing to it.

Re: How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

#63
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest complaint that I've heard from female engineers who have been around for more than a couple years is that there are so few of them, and that it is such a male-dominated industry. I can't speak for them, but I have my own complaints on this front, as a guy. Overlooking the specific gender biases that women face, there are real differences between how men and women work and interact, and I find it rather te…

The only people I have ever seen use the terms rock star or ninja are women in HR/Recruiting.

Counterdote: I've heard men say it. But they were never programmers or engineers, always people in either sales or management.

Re: How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

#64
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a damn good programmer. I have these problems. Do you really start thinking about how bad woman are believed to be at science and math every time you speak to a male colleague or walk into a room full of men? I don't know, I'm asking... The difference between us is that they aren't asking you to do something that is biologically impossible Are you suggesting that male programmer behavior has a biological basis?

It's not that conscious, but every time I walk into a room full of men... hm, the closest analogy I can think of is arriving at what you thought was a fancy dress party only to discover everyone else is in jeans and a t-shirt. Every time I take a deep breath and step into a crowd where people assume I'm from HR or I'm with whatever man I'm chatting with that second. It's not even that I think about it all the time; i…

It is impossible to forget, because the environment and people around me reproduce them, mostly entirely unintentionally. Even just the lack of women is a subtle, ever-present reminder that I am doing something weird and kind of awkward.

It's interesting that you're conscious of all this and yet it still effects you. In your case it seems to not be a case of stereotype threat but more a lack of self-confidence (re: "doing something weird and kind of awkward") or a need to fit in. If they started hiring more women developers would that make you feel more confident in your own abilities or have a positive effect on your job performance? If so why?

Re: How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

#65
The lack of compassion here demonstrated by people who clearly have not even tried to empathize with the experiences of those with stereotype threat is disheartening. It's a phenomenon backed by increasing amounts of research and as someone who has dealt with it for years I am excited to see that it is finally getting so much attention.

For those of you who are actually able to empathize a bit here, I found the APA paper "Stereotype Threat at Work" http://www.apa.org/education/ce/stereotype-threat.pdf to be especially useful in communicating with managers, mentors and peers about what I was experiencing in the workplace. I don't think there are easy solutions to this issue, but bringing a little awareness and kindness to situations where a member of your team might have their stereotype threat activated can really go a long way.

As hackers we typically care about efficiency, and stereotype threat is making some of our peers less efficient. If you think it's just a matter of "getting over it," your empathy skills could use a little work. A lot of this stuff is unconscious and impossible to unwire after a lifetime of being fed cultural stereotypes.

Re: How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

#66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I have understood you correctly... Women don't have unique, unnecessary, gender-specific challenges because once the suits were mean to you? Puzzling reasoning.

Something is hardly a "gender-specific challenge" when both men and women report running into it, yes?

Yes, both men and women encounter stereotype threat. However, in programming, stereotype threat works mainly against women. So in context, yes, it's gender-specific.

Re: How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

#67
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article links the wikipedia page on stereotype threat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_threat , which has plenty of references to studies demonstrating how this differs from other types of anxiety.

That it does, but my argument is that that what the author experienced isn't stereotype threat. The effects of stereotype threat are (supposedly) manifested in a decrease in performance. Feeling excluded or thinking (in this case unjustifiably) that you're not wanted isn't due to stereotype threat. If the author was failing her courses or was under performing at work that would (potentially) be a result of stereotype…

In my experience the decrease in performance can be felt both short-term (the classic example of students taking a standardized test) and long-term. It also doesn't necessarily mean that someone is doing poorly - they may just be aware that they're not performing at their potential.

Re: How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

#68
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not that conscious, but every time I walk into a room full of men... hm, the closest analogy I can think of is arriving at what you thought was a fancy dress party only to discover everyone else is in jeans and a t-shirt. Every time I take a deep breath and step into a crowd where people assume I'm from HR or I'm with whatever man I'm chatting with that second. It's not even that I think about it all the time; i…

It is impossible to forget, because the environment and people around me reproduce them, mostly entirely unintentionally. Even just the lack of women is a subtle, ever-present reminder that I am doing something weird and kind of awkward. It's interesting that you're conscious of all this and yet it still effects you. In your case it seems to not be a case of stereotype threat but more a lack of self-confidence (re: "…

Well, it depends what you mean by "effect". I certainly think I cope with it better because I am aware of what is going on. I'm experienced and successful enough to be confident in my code, and I got there in part by learning about sexism and how it functioned so I could sift what of my personal judgement was about me and my performance from what was about the people around me.

The whole experience is very lizard-brain; I can rationalize it after the fact and compensate for the dynamic when making decisions, but that doesn't completely get rid of the emotions in the first place. Like how just because you know a film is a horror film doesn't mean you don't startle when something jumps out at the screen.

I don't know for sure if it affects my performance, since I haven't performed tests on myself, but I believe the evidence I have read that suggests it probably does. I can't really explain the mental toll that that being a constant visible outsider takes, especially when people around you say things about the group you belong to without remembering that you are one. It's not crippling, but it isn't pleasant either; sort of like wearing ten pound weights all the time.

I don't think having more women around would make me more confident in my job performance, but it would make me more confident in my employment and leave more energy to devote to the job. Jobs, especially programming, include teamwork, camaraderie and talking with coworkers. It's a lot harder to relax and fit in when you don't entirely no matter what you do.

I don't want to give the impression that this is all in women's heads either. Groups of people bond over whatever they have in common, whether it is shoes, pets, culture or gender. Right now, if some guy in the work place says something sexist or talks about how weird and incomprehensible their wives are or talks about typically-masculine things like cars or football or scotch or how they hate GUIs or how people need to stop being such pussies or how the best coders are all men, they are signaling group membership by defining themselves against another group, which I can't help but belong to. Even if I don't say anything at all, just existing is enough to disrupt the maleness-centered bonding that would otherwise be going on (at best. At worst I get "complements" like, "oh, you're not like other women!" and they keep on defining group membership in a way that would exclude me if they hadn't made some careful and possibly-temporary exception in their mind.) Once there are enough women in a space, dudes stop trying to bond over how male we all are and we can start bonding over the work we do or the books we like or whatever the reason is we are actually there.

I think when there get to be enough women in a group it improves some men's performance too. There are some men who backlash when it happens because they have defined themselves by the masculinity of their groups. They are the ones who talk about how we don't need to worry about there being no women in CS and how the whole thing is biology; those opinions don't magically change when women do enter a field, even though they become pretty silly. On the other hand, other men can stop worrying about whether they are acting manly enough and stop spending effort to hide parts of themselves to better fit in to unrealistic masculine norms and focus instead on the work at hand.

Re: How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

#69
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is impossible to forget, because the environment and people around me reproduce them, mostly entirely unintentionally. Even just the lack of women is a subtle, ever-present reminder that I am doing something weird and kind of awkward. It's interesting that you're conscious of all this and yet it still effects you. In your case it seems to not be a case of stereotype threat but more a lack of self-confidence (re: "…

Well, it depends what you mean by "effect". I certainly think I cope with it better because I am aware of what is going on. I'm experienced and successful enough to be confident in my code, and I got there in part by learning about sexism and how it functioned so I could sift what of my personal judgement was about me and my performance from what was about the people around me. The whole experience is very lizard-bra…

Ah I see... From your vocabulary, writing style and misandrist digs I can tell you're a "trained feminist" and I know once that belief system takes hold there's no going back and as such, there's no point in arguing. I'm sorry to have wasted your time. Good luck to you and especially to your colleagues.

Re: How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That it does, but my argument is that that what the author experienced isn't stereotype threat. The effects of stereotype threat are (supposedly) manifested in a decrease in performance. Feeling excluded or thinking (in this case unjustifiably) that you're not wanted isn't due to stereotype threat. If the author was failing her courses or was under performing at work that would (potentially) be a result of stereotype…

In my experience the decrease in performance can be felt both short-term (the classic example of students taking a standardized test) and long-term. It also doesn't necessarily mean that someone is doing poorly - they may just be aware that they're not performing at their potential.

If someone is consciously aware they are not performing at their potential and continue to do so, I find it hard to lay the blame at the feet of stereotype threat. No? It sounds like they're either misjudging their potential or just being lazy.
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