How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it • Hacker News Board

Re: How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

#51

Post by michaelt » Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 6:03 PM UTC

peterwwillis wrote: post #38

First let me say that yet again, another blog post that contains little to no science to back up claims; instead, personal feelings and an individual's experience become the standard by which apparently all people experience working in STEM. We should not immediately concede that one person's experience defines an industry, or several. (The "stereotype threat" article is not a compelling enough argument to me that th…

  First let me say that yet again, another blog post that 
  contains little to no science to back up claims; instead, 
  personal feelings and an individual's experience become 
  the standard by which apparently all people experience 
  working in STEM.

"Stereotype Threat and Women’s Math Performance" by Spencer, Steele and Quinn [1] contains an interesting series of experiments.

In the first experiment, test subjects are given two math exams, an easier one (from the GRE general exam) and a harder one (from the advanced GRE mathematics exam). All test subjects had 1 semester to 1 year of calculus with at least a B grade. They observed something that has been seen in the literature before - that both genders perform equally on the easier exam, but women underperform on the harder exam.

In the second experiment, a different set of test subjects were given the harder exam. Half the subjects were told the test had been shown to produce gender differences, half that it had been shown not to produce gender differences.

Characterizing the test as insensitive to gender differences was enough to totally eliminate women's underperformance. When the same test was characterized as sensitive to gender differences, women significantly underperformed in relation to equally qualified men. (results are fig. 2 on page 13 of the PDF)

The third experiment repeats the second experiment under different conditions and gets a similar result.

  The "stereotype threat" article is not a compelling 
  enough argument to me that there is some gender 
  stereotype conspiracy only found in STEM

No stereotype conspiracy is required - the threat is from the stereotype /held by the test subject/ that they will/are expected to underperform.

[1] http://www.leedsmet.ac.uk/carnegie/learning_resources/LAW_PG...

Re: How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

#52

Post by danilocampos » Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 6:10 PM UTC

droithomme wrote: post #49

danilocampos wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I have understood you correctly... Women don't have unique, unnecessary, gender-specific challenges because once the suits were mean to you? Puzzling reasoning.

Yep, I'm just a pussy and need to man up, you got it. Must have got my sensitive feelings hurt, that's all this is. Very insightful comment, "bro".

Your language reveals much to confirm my initial suspicions. Good luck in your adventures.

Re: How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

#53

Post by bethly » Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 6:16 PM UTC

droithomme wrote: post #3

This is an ongoing made up fake crisis. First, I've yet to see any women engineers who have demonstrated they are good at their jobs make this argument. It's mostly bloggers and journalists writing these things. Women engineers who are good don't describe having problems any different from the rest of us. As far as the actual incidents of harassment from asshole managers and socially inept coworkers, I've got the sam…

I am a damn good programmer. I have these problems.

I am sorry you encountered gender-policing behavior at your last job: that is exactly what I, as a feminist, am trying to fight against for both men and women. Saying that because patriarchy hurts everyone it isn't a problem to be solved, though, is unhelpful. It is a matter of "yes, and": it hurts men and it hurts women measurably more (https://kuscholarworks.ku.edu/dspace/bitstream/1808/258/1/Sc...) and in neither case is it acceptable.

It's not just at work: conferences, meet ups and most of all online I encounter attitudes every day that either demand I act like a man, just as you did. The difference between us is that they aren't asking you to do something that is biologically impossible, and reminding you in the process that you will never, ever be able to simply fit in to your chosen profession.

Re: How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

#54

Post by bethly » Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 6:21 PM UTC

jaems33 wrote: post #13

I've said this before, but whenever I see these conversations on my Twitter and HN streams, huge segments of people are left out of the conversation. In the U.S. at least, tech dialogue is about 'men' and 'women', despite the fact that a significant number of certain men are rarely represented in the tech industry. Asian/Asian America men might overrepresent their demographic in the tech industry relative to their %…

Your attitude is derailing: this isn't a zero-sum game. I do talk about other under-represented segments, including the intersections. We aren't talking about them right now, and we don't need to stop talking about this in order to talk about that. In fact, much of the research done here has proven useful when considering racial stereotype threat, so talking about this furthers the research in the area of your concern.

I recommend finding or writing some articles about the problem and posting them. I look forward to discussing them.

Re: How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

#55

Post by bethly » Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 6:24 PM UTC

peterwwillis wrote: post #38

First let me say that yet again, another blog post that contains little to no science to back up claims; instead, personal feelings and an individual's experience become the standard by which apparently all people experience working in STEM. We should not immediately concede that one person's experience defines an industry, or several. (The "stereotype threat" article is not a compelling enough argument to me that th…

When I wrote a post that contained nothing but science it got flagged off HN with one up vote and no comments.

I feel like there is a huge double-bind, where anything science-y is boring and dry and long and qualified with caveats and error bounds, so no one reads it. On the other hand, anything short, rhetorical and designed to communicate the human cost of the problem gets dismissed for being nothing but the writer's opinion.

I don't really know what the answer is; I would love to hear any suggestions people have.

Re: How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

#56

Post by surrealize » Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 7:05 PM UTC

droithomme wrote: post #49

danilocampos wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I have understood you correctly... Women don't have unique, unnecessary, gender-specific challenges because once the suits were mean to you? Puzzling reasoning.

Yep, I'm just a pussy and need to man up, you got it. Must have got my sensitive feelings hurt, that's all this is. Very insightful comment, "bro".

Wow, that's not what danilocampos said at all. Your old workplace was f'ed up! Totally agreed! However, the bad experience you had is off-topic relative to the article we're discussing.

You had a rough time, and stereotype threat is a real thing and a real problem that we should fix. Those two things aren't mutually exclusive! The fact that your old job was f'ed up doesn't say anything about the problem being discussed in the linked article.

Re: How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

#57

Post by cantastoria » Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 7:09 PM UTC

bct wrote: post #50

cantastoria wrote: post #48

When women look at tech companies and math departments, they see few women. This activates the stereotype that women aren’t good at math. The stereotype… Is there any evidence that this is what actually happens? Are all women carrying around these stereotypes with them? It just seems like a "just so" explanation. Most of the examples in this article aren't of stereotype threat, they're examples of the authors' insecu…

The article links the wikipedia page on stereotype threat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereotype_threat , which has plenty of references to studies demonstrating how this differs from other types of anxiety.

That it does, but my argument is that that what the author experienced isn't stereotype threat. The effects of stereotype threat are (supposedly) manifested in a decrease in performance. Feeling excluded or thinking (in this case unjustifiably) that you're not wanted isn't due to stereotype threat. If the author was failing her courses or was under performing at work that would (potentially) be a result of stereotype threat. I see no evidence either occurred, she was getting As in her classes and from what I gather was able to get and keep jobs in the software industry. She's just seems unable to cope with being the only woman in the room .

Re: How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

#58

Post by ucee054 » Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 7:13 PM UTC

bct wrote: post #46

ucee054 wrote: post #40

Maybe we don't need more women in software. Maybe people shouldn't be persuaded to pick careers based on what "society wants" or what demographic ratios "should" be. Maybe we need more women, no, more people to pick the most advantageous careers for them personally.

The entire article is about personal experiences that have prevented people from doing the things that they're interested in. It doesn't say anything about what society wants, or ideal demographic ratios, or whatever. This isn't about philosophy or ideology, and it's interesting that so many people here are framing it that way.

They frame it that way because the article does hint at it, especially in intro bullet 3

>>>

The Gender Gap in STEM (science, technology, engineering, mathematics) fields and in Silicon Valley is a hot topic right now. We hear the same questions over and over, from many different directions:

* What are the causes of this phenomenon?

* What are the solutions?

* Is it even something we ought to be concerned about?(I won’t dignify that last one with an answer.)

Re: How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

#59

Post by cantastoria » Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 7:20 PM UTC

bethly wrote: post #53

droithomme wrote: post #3

This is an ongoing made up fake crisis. First, I've yet to see any women engineers who have demonstrated they are good at their jobs make this argument. It's mostly bloggers and journalists writing these things. Women engineers who are good don't describe having problems any different from the rest of us. As far as the actual incidents of harassment from asshole managers and socially inept coworkers, I've got the sam…

I am a damn good programmer. I have these problems. I am sorry you encountered gender-policing behavior at your last job: that is exactly what I, as a feminist, am trying to fight against for both men and women. Saying that because patriarchy hurts everyone it isn't a problem to be solved, though, is unhelpful. It is a matter of "yes, and": it hurts men and it hurts women measurably more ( https://kuscholarworks.ku.e…

I am a damn good programmer. I have these problems.

Do you really start thinking about how bad woman are believed to be at science and math every time you speak to a male colleague or walk into a room full of men? I don't know, I'm asking...

The difference between us is that they aren't asking you to do something that is biologically impossible

Are you suggesting that male programmer behavior has a biological basis?

Re: How Stereotype Threat keeps women from working in SW — and how we can fight it

#60

Post by ucee054 » Wed, Aug 01, 2012, 7:25 PM UTC

bct wrote: post #46

ucee054 wrote: post #40

Maybe we don't need more women in software. Maybe people shouldn't be persuaded to pick careers based on what "society wants" or what demographic ratios "should" be. Maybe we need more women, no, more people to pick the most advantageous careers for them personally.

The entire article is about personal experiences that have prevented people from doing the things that they're interested in. It doesn't say anything about what society wants, or ideal demographic ratios, or whatever. This isn't about philosophy or ideology, and it's interesting that so many people here are framing it that way.

By the way, I am a bit dubious about the "personal experience" involved here, because - the way I understand it - it's about a dearth of societal role models.

I was never even aware of that as a factor. If I had been, I should have thought "Of course I can't engineer software because according to our society's stereotypes of middle eastern people, I should become a terrorist instead".

I don't get why anyone should even care about stereotypes in the first place (let alone have to de-program themselves) because they should decide for themselves as individuals.

Grumble grumble, Identity Politics, grumble grumble.