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Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

arstechnica.com

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Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#111

Post by ein0p »

Kim_Bruning wrote: post #16

Up to 128 GB RAM available for running AI models. Theoretically awesome, but this might have some interesting market consequences for everyone else.

With what memory bandwidth? Remember, without e.g. speculative decoding you need to read the entire model and KV cache for every token. Let's be extremely generous and say you get 512GB/sec in memory bandwidth, on par with a high end M4 MacBook Pro. This means you can only read the entire DRAM 4 times a second, generating at most 4 tokens per second. Smaller models will of course run proportionally faster, but 128GB isn't by itself a sufficient statistic to say whether this is "theoretically awesome" or not.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#112

Post by 999900000999 »

Etheryte wrote: post #73

One interesting angle here could be if this had good compatibility with SteamOS to the point where it supported most/all the games the Steam Deck does. That would make it a very appealing offering, since right now DIY SteamOS setups are a pretty wild west.

As is you can buy a decent AMD mini PC for about $500 and just install Linux on it. It works very well for the most part, and a few distros offer steam OS like experiences.

For my mini PC I couldn't get the EGPU to work with Linux so I'm stuck on Windows for now... But I play a few games that are Windows only ( anti cheat) so this is for the best.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#113

Post by onli »

Tuna-Fish wrote: post #25
onli wrote: post #14

Framework is great because they took an entshittified category and made a good and repairable product in it, upgradeable in a way the other vendors refused to enable. That was the laptop. Now they made a less repairable desktop PC. This brings nothing to the market. The soldered ram is particularly unacceptable. I get and believe that they could not make it work otherwise, but then they should have stopped the produc…

The soldered ram was necessary for Strix Halo. There is a large group of people who really want Strix Halo, and are willing to pay for it. There is no reason they should have avoided making this product. (The 32GB config is silly, though. With that little RAM, there is nothing it does better than a cheaper machine with a discrete GPU.)

There is a reason and I think my prior comment made it clear: When your declared purpose is to limit e-waste, making a new product that does not foster that goal risks alienating the people you won with your purpose description.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#114

Post by sdwr »

fragmede wrote: post #75
rdedev wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://youtu.be/-lErGZZgUbY The ceo kind of explains why in this video. In essence it seems to be a limitation of the chip from AMD

So don't make it then? If a particular vendor's product isn't in line with the company's mission, the CEO is the one to make the call to proceed with manufacturing. edit: it's not for me and I can totally just not buy one, but if one identified with their original mission and sees this as betrayal of that, it'd be hard to justify getting a framework laptop when it's their turn to upgrade.

I think their ethos is more about being user- and developer- friendly.

RAM upgrades at reasonable prices, being able to buy the main board sans case, and supporting multiple OSes all point in that direction, without strictly being modular

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#115

Post by scarlehoff »

roxolotl wrote: post #52
coldpie wrote: post #22

Two other Framework announcements: New 12-inch laptop form factor with 360 degree hinge (ie "tablet mode") and a touchscreen. No price announced, but it is aimed at students: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2025/02/frameworks-laptop-12... New mainboard upgrade options for Framework 13 models: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2025/02/framework-gives-its-...

I still think very fondly of my 11” MacBook Air. The idea of a 12” framework laptop is very appealing.

Same here. I'm still using my 11" MacBook because it is the only one that fits in my handbag :)

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#116

Post by throwaway48476 »

jsheard wrote: post #63
unethical_ban wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a balance between forgetting your purpose and thinking too narrowly about your business. At first, Framework is "laptops that are repairable". But if you broaden what they are, they are a disruptor of direct-to-consumer computing equipment, with a core competency of repairability and upgradability. An integrated CPU/RAM is a decrease in that measure, but it is for a valid benefit - a large improvement in per…

> I wonder if modular memory will continue to evolve and be competitive bandwidth wise with soldered. That's the promise of CAMM2, which is supposed to enable socketed LPDDR with almost the same performance as soldered-down LPDDR. It's still pretty bleeding-edge though so it's hard to blame Framework for sticking with soldered memory for now.

It's on package memory that AMD sells bundled to OEMs.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#117

Post by jsheard »

ein0p wrote: post #111
Kim_Bruning wrote: post #16

Up to 128 GB RAM available for running AI models. Theoretically awesome, but this might have some interesting market consequences for everyone else.

With what memory bandwidth? Remember, without e.g. speculative decoding you need to read the entire model and KV cache for every token. Let's be extremely generous and say you get 512GB/sec in memory bandwidth, on par with a high end M4 MacBook Pro. This means you can only read the entire DRAM 4 times a second, generating at most 4 tokens per second. Smaller models will of course run proportionally faster, but 128GB…

> With what memory bandwidth?

256GB/sec, so roughly M4 Pro throughput.

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#118

Post by thomasfortes »

Tuna-Fish wrote: post #25
onli wrote: post #14

Framework is great because they took an entshittified category and made a good and repairable product in it, upgradeable in a way the other vendors refused to enable. That was the laptop. Now they made a less repairable desktop PC. This brings nothing to the market. The soldered ram is particularly unacceptable. I get and believe that they could not make it work otherwise, but then they should have stopped the produc…

The soldered ram was necessary for Strix Halo. There is a large group of people who really want Strix Halo, and are willing to pay for it. There is no reason they should have avoided making this product. (The 32GB config is silly, though. With that little RAM, there is nothing it does better than a cheaper machine with a discrete GPU.)

> The soldered ram was necessary for Strix Halo

In the LTT video the framework CEO explains that AMD wasn't able to make LPCAMM work because of signal integrity over the bus reasons.

But 2000 dollars for up to 110GB of VRAM in Linux makes this a VERY interesting little machine, so much that the framework website has a cloudflare queue right now...

Re: Framework's first desktop is a strange–but unique–mini ITX gaming PC

#119

Post by Dylan16807 »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #58
h14h wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Repair-friendly form factor for a "Unified Memory" platform. For $2000, you get 128 of system RAM, 96 of which is addressable as VRAM. Only ways of getting 96GB of VRAM in a desktop are to either: 1. Drop ~$5000 on a (very non-upgradeable) Mac Studio 2. Drop ~$20k on a dual RTX 6000 workstation For running local LLMs, there's nothing on the market presently even remotely like this.

You can get a M3/M4 Max with 128 GB of RAM as well. The Studio will give you > 128 GB. I have a max with 64GB RAM, which is good enough for 70b models with a 3 bit quant. Even if I had more RAM to run larger models, my GPU would be the bottleneck.

> You can get a M3/M4 Max with 128 GB of RAM as well.

To get an M4 Max so you can have 128GB, you need a macbook pro. The cheapest macbook pro with 128GB is $4700.

M4 Max does have the benefit of more memory controllers, so it has twice as much memory bandwidth as Ryzen AI Max. But that's a lot of money to pay for it.

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