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Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

mooreds.com

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Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#261

Post by dctoedt »

thevarmint wrote: post #196
ryandrake wrote: post #33

This is a critical skill in big companies where everyone is swamped and busy and things get lost. I do this all the time when I’m dealing with people who don’t answer their email, or who tend to stall and delay approvals, or people who are just very busy. I’ll Email and describe the problem and then say the magic phrase “ If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days , I am going to do XYZ on [DAY N].” This way I’m not a…

In the military, it gets abbreviated “UNODIR” meaning “Unless otherwise directed”.

Glad I searched for UNODIR before making this comment!

And that'd be a useful code to include in the subject line of the email, e.g.:

To: Boss

From: Me

Subj: UNODIR by [DATE], upgrading the production database

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#262

Post by dctoedt »

As pointed out by @thevarmint, UNODIR is a longstanding military abbreviation for "unless otherwise directed."

And that'd be a useful code to include in the subject line of the email as an attention-getter and summary, e.g.:

=========

To: Boss

From: Me

Subj: UNODIR 2/23/25: Upgrading production database

=======

And the body of the email could provide more background.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#263

Post by motorest »

harry8 wrote: post #260
mooreds wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can very well state "I'm going to do XYZ because of [REASONS]. I'm going to do XYZ on [DAY N]. If anyone objects or has any reservations, please reach out to me." Love this phrasing. As other comments have mentioned, you probably don't want to go into the full depths of reasons in the email. Rather have a high level summary with a link to a long form doc or RFC. And of course, the appropriate level of detail de…

IME you often get a response that seeks to turn it into s “conversation.” Keeping everything super vague but something that can be pointed to on s paper trail as “I expressed reservations” Neither approval, nor disapproval just straight up quagmire. There’s no silver bullet to getting things done successfully in any large organisation of humans.

> Neither approval, nor disapproval just straight up quagmire.

That's ok. Setup a meeting with said stakeholder, clarify your position, ask for input, and in the end ask straight up if they have any objection. Save the meeting minute and send it to everyone who attended the meeting.

They need to put up or shut up. Playing games does not work.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#265

Post by brookst »

OutOfHere wrote: post #213
brookst wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s quite a luxury to work in a company where every interaction is perfectly empowered. Many of us have jobs that are on the whole very good, but where inter-departmentmental or inter-personal challenges come up from time to time. I’m definitely not one who’s willing to quit in search of the elusive perfect company in that case.

Startups often offer it, and it doesn't have to be so early stage that one has to work more hours either. Once a company gets older, it adds layers of damaging bureaucracy that comes in the way of innovation.

I’ve worked at several startups and I’m not at all sure the typical employee is more empowered. Yes, large companies have bureaucracy, but startups often have micromanaging founders who haven’t learned stuff like delegation.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#266

Post by worik »

xerox13ster wrote: post #227
worik wrote: post #95

I'd fire him > .”Hey, boss, I am going to install action X, which should solve the XYZ problems we’ve been having. Will take care of this on Monday unless I hear differently from you.” No thank you. I'm the boss. Don't push me around

Yes you’re the boss and no one can take that away from you. You must have worked very hard to get there if you’re blocking your team from taking initiative and making independent contributions to the organization. Based on this attitude I’d assume you suffer from an extreme inability to delegate and are going to be stuck in whatever direct supervisor position you’re in for the remainder of your career. If I showed in…

> If I showed initiative like this

It is not initiative. It is manipulation

That is poison in any organisation

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#267

Post by worik »

mooreds wrote: post #187
worik wrote: post #95

I'd fire him > .”Hey, boss, I am going to install action X, which should solve the XYZ problems we’ve been having. Will take care of this on Monday unless I hear differently from you.” No thank you. I'm the boss. Don't push me around

Author here. Ah, this is interesting feedback. I think that there's some nuance to this approach that I didn't capture in the post. You have to have some level of trust between yourself and your boss, which you've earned over time by being right and/or fixing mistakes you've made if you were wrong. The idea isn't to push the boss around; it's to make the boss' job easier by making default decisions for them, but lett…

> You have to have some level of trust between yourself and your boss

Yes.

What you are suggesting is corrosive to trust though.

Frank discussion is good. Stating what you need and what you expect.

Game playing is no good and I would probably not fire you for it, I was being hyperbolic, but the point I am making is do not play games.

At work, or anywhere. Relationships thrive on honesty.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#268

Post by docmars »

ncallaway wrote: post #159
Imustaskforhelp wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am also wondering this , how can we do this without being confrontational and also not being too wordy that you lose interest

“After looking at all the options I think XYZ is the best path forward. Our team will implement that on June 3rd. If anyone has any concerns about this approach, please reach out before then. Thanks!”

I often use: "I'm open to input as we move forward on this" to suggest it's already happening, with a clear and kind invitation for feedback.

What often happens if my manager objects is the urgency of "it's already happening" will result in him wanting to pause on it, if it's important to him.

Most of the time it's "ok, sounds good" where there's a clear trust between us. Or it might result in a "ok, sounds good -- just make sure so-and-so is aware too".

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#269

Post by AdrianB1 »

motorest wrote: post #107
ryandrake wrote: post #33

This is a critical skill in big companies where everyone is swamped and busy and things get lost. I do this all the time when I’m dealing with people who don’t answer their email, or who tend to stall and delay approvals, or people who are just very busy. I’ll Email and describe the problem and then say the magic phrase “ If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days , I am going to do XYZ on [DAY N].” This way I’m not a…

> “If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days, I am going to do XYZ on [DAY N].” This way I’m not asking for approval and then helplessly waiting and pinging. I feel this tone is needlessly confrontational. You can very well state "II'm going to do XYZ because of [REASONS]. I'm going to do XYZ on [DAY N]. If anyone objects or has any reservations, please reach out to me." This approach also forces you to present a sou…

It depends on the context. My boss is so busy that he rarely answers to my emails, he is available to talk very rarely (once every few months) so I write him what I plan to do then I do it. He never answered "no". Even for vacations, I just let him know when I go and for how long, if it is up to a week. I am responsible of my own work and he is just around.

My former manager used to do the same. He is a 40 year veteran, retiring in the next few months and for the past 6 years since I met him he wrote many emails telling people what he plans to do and just did it. It works for us very well.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#270

Post by neilv »

Sometimes I do something like:

"Small heads up: I plan to do [thing] at [time/day], unless I hear any objections before then.

[optional following paragraph(s), with link to the issue-tracking task, and/or inline rationale/detail]"

This is for things that probably don't need to be discussed, with people with whom you have a good working relationship, but for which a low-friction opportunity for correcting my mistaken assumption is good.

If you do it for something that you should've realized probably needs to be discussed, or that you should've realized probably needs an affirmative approval, then bypassing that was a mistake of yours, and damages trust.

If you do it when there's some kind of trust problem, then it's dripping with subtext. Like you might be looking to bypass them with weak paper trail, or maybe you're being passive-aggressive in the way you nominally keep them in the loop. Until you fix the trust problem, err on the side of avoiding new misunderstandings.

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