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Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

mooreds.com

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Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#181

Post by Xmd5a »

closewith wrote: post #168
schubart wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I don’t hear back from you in [N] days, I am not going to do XYZ, considering you don't deem it to be important. Sounds even more confrontational.

Yeah, let's soften it up: > I'm going to proceed with XYZ in N days. If any of you fucking idiots have a problem with that, then scrawl it down in crayon and flush it down the jacks, which is where you'll end up if you dare question my decisions in future.

English is not my first language and I have communication issues. Having said that you may be onto something unironically. Respectful conversations often pack more tensions than downright disrespectful approaches, such as the way "cabron" can be used affectionately in a group of Spanish friends.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#182

Post by ysavir »

This seems like the sort of communication style that would immediately have me label someone as a liability.

It presents the communication as if it's saving someone time. In practice, it's a communication style that tells the manager that they need to always keep on top of whatever the employee is doing or else that employee might be taking unwanted action(s). The article treats it as a notification, but even with the best intentions and the best understandings, notifications have a habit of getting lost in a noise of signals. A lack of response does not indicate consent. It could, but it could also very well indicate that the message hasn't been received.

It might be fine if the problem was something the employee and manager previously talked about and this is simply moving forward with a solution, but it's a terrible way to introduce a problem that the other party hasn't even considered. It's a selfish take, and the antithesis of teamwork.

Feels like the sort of thing someone might have seen one of the mythical 10x, Rockstar engineers do. The sort of engineer that's always on top of their game, churning out feature after feature, knows what to do, and has enough respect from and mutual understanding with management that they're given the leeway to self-manage. And the someone, seeing this, decided that the same can apply to themselves, without understanding why that rockstar engineer gets that treatment, or how to go about earning it for themselves in the firstplace.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#183

Post by mft_ »

A technique I use regularly (mostly for decision-making in meetings) and successfully is the five finger approach.

Essentially, people have to hold up a number of fingers showing how strongly they feel about the decision that is proposed. If they strongly oppose it they can do, but they have to offer an alternate proposal at the same time.

What works very well about this is that it moves people away from “do I support this, and is this the perfect proposal?” to “do I hate this enough to block it?”

As such, I think it’s similar to the article’s approach – the default decision (in the absence of strong disagreement) becomes a yes.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#184

Post by s3p »

mft_ wrote: post #183

A technique I use regularly (mostly for decision-making in meetings) and successfully is the five finger approach. Essentially, people have to hold up a number of fingers showing how strongly they feel about the decision that is proposed. If they strongly oppose it they can do, but they have to offer an alternate proposal at the same time. What works very well about this is that it moves people away from “do I suppor…

This is such an interesting strategy, thanks for sharing. We typically get bogged down in meetings by people dropping constant nuances and edge cases and overly complicating things when a new proposal is presented. I might see if we can adopt a similar approach.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#185

Post by bentt »

ysavir wrote: post #182

This seems like the sort of communication style that would immediately have me label someone as a liability. It presents the communication as if it's saving someone time. In practice, it's a communication style that tells the manager that they need to always keep on top of whatever the employee is doing or else that employee might be taking unwanted action(s). The article treats it as a notification, but even with th…

As with everything it's about the relationship. If you do this 3 times in a row and receive "stop, please don't" then obviously you're off in some regard. If you do it 3 times in a row and get praise, then keep going.

The liability person is someone that is told no, then figures out how to do most of it anyway. Then looks for a yes. Then the next task same thing. No responsiveness to feedback.

So, it's really not about the method described as much as the working relationship. It seems like a fine thing to try in a high-trust environment where people are busy.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#187

Post by mooreds »

worik wrote: post #95

I'd fire him > .”Hey, boss, I am going to install action X, which should solve the XYZ problems we’ve been having. Will take care of this on Monday unless I hear differently from you.” No thank you. I'm the boss. Don't push me around

Author here.

Ah, this is interesting feedback. I think that there's some nuance to this approach that I didn't capture in the post. You have to have some level of trust between yourself and your boss, which you've earned over time by being right and/or fixing mistakes you've made if you were wrong.

The idea isn't to push the boss around; it's to make the boss' job easier by making default decisions for them, but letting them weigh in.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#188

Post by mooreds »

bentt wrote: post #185
ysavir wrote: post #182

This seems like the sort of communication style that would immediately have me label someone as a liability. It presents the communication as if it's saving someone time. In practice, it's a communication style that tells the manager that they need to always keep on top of whatever the employee is doing or else that employee might be taking unwanted action(s). The article treats it as a notification, but even with th…

As with everything it's about the relationship. If you do this 3 times in a row and receive "stop, please don't" then obviously you're off in some regard. If you do it 3 times in a row and get praise, then keep going. The liability person is someone that is told no, then figures out how to do most of it anyway. Then looks for a yes. Then the next task same thing. No responsiveness to feedback. So, it's really not abo…

That's a great point. There needs to be trust between the person doing this and the boss. That trust is earned.

You also need to pick the right scope of problems--not too big. If you are one month into a new job and use this technique, but the problem you are trying to solve is deep rooted and you don't understand it, you'll burn effort and credibility.

It also makes sense to respond to feedback from your manager, as you suggest above. Some managers may hate this (see other comments, including one that would fire anyone using this technique). In fact, you could even explicitly ask how a manager wants to weigh in on decisions that you feel are in your purview but that they might have feedback on. (Drawing out a manager's readme, as it were.)

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#189

Post by EtCepeyd »

Nice; instead of burdening your boss with a decision, now you're burdening them with a ultimatum, with a deadline. I guess, as a manager, I wouldn't love anything more than a report saddling me with an arbitrary deadline, one I'd have to schedule along with the rest.

One of my managers used to tell me this, instead: ask for forgiveness, not permission. That one seems way saner to me.

Re: Ask for no, don't ask for yes (2022)

#190

Post by mooreds »

EtCepeyd wrote: post #189

Nice; instead of burdening your boss with a decision, now you're burdening them with a ultimatum , with a deadline. I guess, as a manager, I wouldn't love anything more than a report saddling me with an arbitrary deadline, one I'd have to schedule along with the rest. One of my managers used to tell me this, instead: ask for forgiveness, not permission. That one seems way saner to me.

> One of my managers used to tell me this, instead: ask for forgiveness, not permission. That one seems way saner to me.

So you are suggesting making the change without consultation and then waiting for it to be discovered?

I guess that makes sense for certain kinds of situations, but the ones I can imagine don't sound very pleasant. Maybe I'm missing something. What is an example of a situation where you'd take this approach?

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