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Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

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Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#421

Post by ocschwar »

grandempire wrote: post #296
foobarian wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The academic pyramid was never sustainable Theoretically it wasn't, or every human on Earth would be a PhD candidate within the century. However there was a period after WW2 where a lot of empty professor chairs needed to be filled and so I believe that people came to expect the growth. So for example you would have the post-war generation push their kids into it, saying "but of course you can be a professor like m…

The period after WW2 wasn’t empty seats to be filled, it was the government funding science, engineering, and some social science. That changed the shape of universities forever.

It was both. The universities needed help recovering from WW2, and they got that plus more thanks to Vannevar Bush.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#422

Post by __rito__ »

UncleMeat wrote: post #405
__rito__ wrote: post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> while the majority of Social Sciences doctoral students are from a lower SE class I am speaking solely from anecdotes, but Social Science grad students generally have a Rabbi from early on their career. That is, they are favorite students, close students to at least one powerful/influential figure in their field. A lot of favoritism and a different kind of nepotism play an important part Social Sciences academia. A…

Every PhD applicant needs letters of recommendation. You get those from faculty members who think that you are skilled. If you go look at the incoming class of CS PhDs at the top 20 schools, you'll find that basically every single one has a good relationship with at least one faculty member. Callouts of social sciences and the use of "rabbi" are baffling here.

LoRs are there in every field.

But when you are in the social sciences, your mentor takes responsibility for whole of your career.

They see to it that you are ultimately "placed" in life.

Also, what papers are deemed good or influential depend a lot on who you have good relations with, as there are no clear definitions of good/influential like there are in exact science fields.

I am just saying what I have seen.

If you are familiar with 90s-00s vocabulary, you will know what I mean by "Rabbi". It has nothing to do with Judaism or Jews.

> rabbi

> (noun) By metaphor from the Jewish religious role, an older, more powerful or higher-ranking person in the corporation where one works (but usually not in the chain of command) who can give good advice about office politics, and may be able to pull strings, remove heads, or otherwise provide protection from hostile forces.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#423

Post by ocschwar »

foobarian wrote: post #260
musicale wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only ONE of you will take your advisor's place, statistically speaking The academic pyramid was never sustainable. However, for some fields (science and engineering being good examples) there are decent jobs outside of academia.

> The academic pyramid was never sustainable Theoretically it wasn't, or every human on Earth would be a PhD candidate within the century. However there was a period after WW2 where a lot of empty professor chairs needed to be filled and so I believe that people came to expect the growth. So for example you would have the post-war generation push their kids into it, saying "but of course you can be a professor like m…

First there was the expansion to recover from WW2. Then there was expansion in science to prepare for the Cold War. There was also expansion from the Great Society's education efforts. And the influx of women and minorities into college. And expansion from other countries sending students to the US to kickstart their own universities.

It kept the academic sector growing for decades, gradually, and people just forgot the mindset you have to have for the day the growth stops. And that day came.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#424

Post by scarface_74 »

WalterBright wrote: post #348
selimthegrim wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You're not going to starve in America if you lose all your money. Walk down my street with me and I’ll show you. > Nor am I as smart as he is. Are you kidding?

I've had the opportunity to know and work with many people who are way smarter than I am. I know one when I see one. Lots of people seem to think that Musk has blundered his way from success to success. Nobody blunders $20,000 into richest man in the world.

Being in the right place at the right time with the right connections and not having your equity diluted helps.

There are plenty of “smart” people who aren’t rich.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#425

Post by vonneumannstan »

avs733 wrote: post #234
vonneumannstan wrote: post #92

In STEM in particular the opportunity costs of a PhD are extremely high and with little payoff at the end. Even if you want to stay in academia, which is the only real reason to do a PhD now, there are far more PhDs graduating per year than open faculty positions. Many get stuck in Postdoc or adjunct hell for years and can never get a tenure track role.

Most stem PhDs actually go into industry. In fact, in my department I would say 60% or more go directly to industry and we are a field with growing faculty opportunities. The immediate post graduation employment of all PhDs is very high 74% in 2023 up from 68% in 2018 and the highest since 1993. Interestingly difference between stem and non stem is effectively moot. I continue to be shocked in this thread at the fact…

Whats the ROI vs a Masters for people going directly to Industry? Did they even intend to do that or realized the Academic Door was closed for them and had no other choice?

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#426

Post by cantrecallmypwd »

mnky9800n wrote: post #352

Incidentally if you are interested in doing a PhD the University of oslo has 64 open phd and postdoc positions currently. PhDs will get a competitive salary (typically something like 50-55k USD/year, this is much higher than anything in USA for example), free healthcare, pension, in the first year you qualify for cheap student housing if you have moved from abroad, and tbh, Norway is kind of nice to live in in my opi…

Unless someone really want to become a postdoc or tenured PI similar to the calling of a teacher, it's really difficult to justify the lower opportunity (time and money) cost of a Masters' or PhD in the US in tech, for example. After just a few years, one can make 250k USD/yr sometimes without even a 4-year degree in CompSci or related STEM field. I honestly feel dumb for pursuing the equivalent of a reputable BS EE/CS when I could've been making 400k/yr in dotcom times.

More power to pure academics who don't pursue money or fame, and instead make an impact.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#427

Post by bnxts21 »

__rito__ wrote: post #287
ohbleek wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I thnk it does occur to people, but that's a choice for nepo babies and aspiring monks. Maybe you've only spent time around PhD candidates at Ivy League schools where people are more likely to have access to wealth, but if you've spent any time at all around PhD candidates you'll find this is generally not the case. As a PhD candidate from a lower SE class, I've found that the majority of my peers are from a similar…

> while the majority of Social Sciences doctoral students are from a lower SE class I am speaking solely from anecdotes, but Social Science grad students generally have a Rabbi from early on their career. That is, they are favorite students, close students to at least one powerful/influential figure in their field. A lot of favoritism and a different kind of nepotism play an important part Social Sciences academia. A…

Pure chat

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#428

Post by LunaSea »

Mistletoe wrote: post #207
yoyohello13 wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising. Lol! Are you new here? Y-combinator is literally about selling your soul to VC.

I'm slowly, very slowly, realizing this and that my objections to this are quite literally pissing into the wind to the wrong crowd. Begging and pleading for people to make tech that doesn't torture and depress the average user seems to just fall upon deaf ears, because all that ever mattered to them was the money.

Users expecting everything to be free is part of the story as well.

Online newspapers having to rely on ads is a good example of it.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#429

Post by runeblaze »

ericmay wrote: post #117
WalterBright wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many research jobs at Microsoft, Google, etc., that require a STEM PhD.

True, but how competitive are those jobs to get? If one goes to a lesser-known university that has a PhD program and does related research are they getting an interview, or are these research jobs intended for specific university pipelines (Harvard, MIT, the usuals, etc.)?

I want to vaguely highlight that they are not that competitive. Headcount is not that great; there is usually a citation/research impact floor; the ivory tower "oh our advisors are friends" thing likely also applies.

Research Scientist positions are also embedded in product teams in Google IIRC, certainly less "prestige" than DeepMind though, and probably easier to get into

(Also for the broader audience: Harvard here probably carries less weight than the likes of UT Austin)

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#430

Post by UncleMeat »

__rito__ wrote: post #422
UncleMeat wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every PhD applicant needs letters of recommendation. You get those from faculty members who think that you are skilled. If you go look at the incoming class of CS PhDs at the top 20 schools, you'll find that basically every single one has a good relationship with at least one faculty member. Callouts of social sciences and the use of "rabbi" are baffling here.

LoRs are there in every field. But when you are in the social sciences, your mentor takes responsibility for whole of your career. They see to it that you are ultimately "placed" in life. Also, what papers are deemed good or influential depend a lot on who you have good relations with, as there are no clear definitions of good/influential like there are in exact science fields. I am just saying what I have seen. If y…

You have a precise definition a good and influential paper in CS? Can I see it?
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