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Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

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Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#171

Post by pinko »

declan_roberts wrote: post #169
xanderlewis wrote: post #165

From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising. It doesn’t even seem to occur to people that one might pursue a doctoral degree because one is interested in the subject and wants to do research . It’s always talked about as if getting a PhD is just another rung in a long ladder towards… earning a lot of money? Not only that — it’s apparently such an obvious…

The only difference between a PhD and a hobby is money, or the presumption of it indirectly (certain jobs, etc) Or else we just call it pursing our natural hobbies and interests. You don't need to go to school for that. If you didn't need more money you wouldn't seek the accreditation.

In many disciplines, it is almost impossible to get oneself into an environment anywhere remotely as rich in collective expertise, resources, and academic-social interaction as a proper graduate research program. There are exceptions (e.g., aspects of tech where money can be made, aspects of social science that intersect with public policy or activism, etc.) but they are rare.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#172

Post by naniwaduni »

nemomarx wrote: post #142
naniwaduni wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The MIT "living wage" figures are, to put it lightly, utterly deranged; more a statement of the purveyors's ideal of a first-world standard of living than a reflection of reality. If they are to be believed, then evidently grad students—or really like, half the population??—must not be alive. As maligned as the poverty lines are—and they do have plenty of shortcomings—they are still a far closer approximation of "the…

generally "living wage" in these contexts also covers like, a house and being able to take care of dependents + maybe a partner? Which is generally above poverty levels right

It's broken down by number of working adults and children.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#173

Post by ikrenji »

cudgy wrote: post #122
null_shift wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If he already knew how to code in other object oriented languages, and was really just learning C++ syntax over the weekend, it’s not as much of a stretch.

C++ is one of the most flexible and unopinionated languages you could ever encounter. The idea that someone who knows a high-level object-oriented language could translate that to immediate success in low-level C++ syntax at a level higher than the experts that developed the libraries over a weekend is frankly fantastical.

prob why there is so much garbage C++ code. someone needs to set the right way of doing things

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#174

Post by teamonkey »

marklar423 wrote: post #116
janalsncm wrote: post #85

I considered a PhD in machine learning. It’s mostly downsides. Granted, most fields are not like this but: 1) The field moves too fast to focus on a single thing for 4 years. A lot of people were devastated when ChatGPT essentially solved their NLP tasks. 2) Cutting edge NLP/vision research is being done in industrial labs as much as universities. And industry will probably outgun you with equipment (GPUs) and high q…

What sort of benefits come from getting a Masters? Everyone I talk to seems to say a Masters in CompSci is useless, and that you may as well do a PhD instead.

A Masters can help with work visas and gaining residencies in some countries

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#175

Post by Liebmann5 »

I got caught cheating in my very last college course so can never get my PhD. I use to be atrocious at school bc I had adhd and was about to drop but did a complete 180 and finally learned how to learn which changed everything. I discovered my love for Math and my immediate and only goal from that point forward was to get my PhD.

My temple became the library and would go there immediately after class and every weekend at 8am. I graduated at the brink of COVID so could no longer go to my favorite and on my very last final of my college career couldn’t take the noise of my roommates cheering me on and also just wanted to be done to used chegg on a small part of my test and got caught.

Do I deserve to get my PhD? No. Why? I showed my academic integrity can’t be trusted. Do I still want my PhD? 1000% Yes. Do I regret my decision? No.

My school told me I could either not be awarded my degree or receive it with the exception that “cheater” be branded everywhere on it. I originally wanted to go with no degree at all but figured I’d own up to my mistake and use the label to rebrand myself as someone who learned their lesson and won’t make the same mistake again.

During COVID I obviously couldn’t find work so utilized my spare time to pick up a new hobby and landed on tinkering. That lead into my discovery of software and the rest is history. I fell in love with software engineering and have been doing it for the past 4+ years.

I’m extremely proud of myself and all that I’ve accomplished because with absolutely no incentive or motivations or even help I managed to learn a new subject completely on my own. A cheater can post code that isn’t theirs’ to their GitHub over the course of 4 years however a cheater can’t show you 4 years worth of work. Also if you think a tech job might’ve been my motivation, I did try to obviously get a job but failed at yet another goal and quit several months ago. I’m working construction but still learning and coding each and every day.

A PhD is becoming an expert in a specified subject and then thinking up an idea no one has ever had before and backing up your ideas with proof. In a PhD program you are given unlimited resources to make that happen. I think (big emphasis on think) I can do that completely on my own. If I’m being honest I’ve actually already begun and don’t know if it’ll work out, come to fruition, or even be read but at least I tried. If I try the only cost is my time but if you’re in a program it costs time and money.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#176

Post by vaidhy »

gyomu wrote: post #149
parpfish wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a ton of fun in my PhD. It probably wasn’t the best route if I was trying to maximize total lifetime earnings, but I’m happy with the route I took. In fact I liked it enough that I often joke that my retirement plan will be to get into another PhD program for the stipend/insurance and just do projects to help some junior prof get their career going

> my retirement plan will be to get into another PhD program for the stipend/insurance Imagine being a young ambitious student not getting placed into a PhD program because some old dude doing it for the benefits and the lolz took the spot.

It is not a zero sum acceptance.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#177

Post by arghnoname »

ericmay wrote: post #117
WalterBright wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many research jobs at Microsoft, Google, etc., that require a STEM PhD.

True, but how competitive are those jobs to get? If one goes to a lesser-known university that has a PhD program and does related research are they getting an interview, or are these research jobs intended for specific university pipelines (Harvard, MIT, the usuals, etc.)?

I have a CS PhD from a good (but not top 5) program and have published in top venues. I perceived my chances of getting a job at Microsoft Research (MSR) to be low (on par with getting a faculty position at a top place) and didn't feel like going through the unpleasant prospect of coming up with job talks and slides, sending off to universities while I'm at it, writing diversity statements, etc, for fairly low chances at getting something at MSR.

I could have gotten something at a 'lesser' place, but my guess is they'd be even more likely to be disrupted by budget cuts.

Even getting one of these roles though leaves you in a position where the next guy who wants to save money can just axe the whole division and then you're on your ass and due to a general paucity of research roles and high competition, this can be very, very bad.

I went bog-standard industry and the PhD probably didn't help much there. My industry job largely wastes my training and research experience. In retrospect, I was foolish to get a PhD and people choosing to not do so are generally making the right choice.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#178

Post by yoyohello13 »

xanderlewis wrote: post #165

From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising. It doesn’t even seem to occur to people that one might pursue a doctoral degree because one is interested in the subject and wants to do research . It’s always talked about as if getting a PhD is just another rung in a long ladder towards… earning a lot of money? Not only that — it’s apparently such an obvious…

> From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising.

Lol! Are you new here? Y-combinator is literally about selling your soul to VC.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#179

Post by __loam »

xanderlewis wrote: post #165

From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising. It doesn’t even seem to occur to people that one might pursue a doctoral degree because one is interested in the subject and wants to do research . It’s always talked about as if getting a PhD is just another rung in a long ladder towards… earning a lot of money? Not only that — it’s apparently such an obvious…

PhD students are not paid a fair wage for their labor. Even if you like the subject and don't care about the money, you're putting yourself in an abusive position where you will be doing long hours for some of the worst part across "STEM".

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#180

Post by palmotea »

xanderlewis wrote: post #165

From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising. It doesn’t even seem to occur to people that one might pursue a doctoral degree because one is interested in the subject and wants to do research . It’s always talked about as if getting a PhD is just another rung in a long ladder towards… earning a lot of money? Not only that — it’s apparently such an obvious…

> From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising.

Not surprising at all. It's a forum run by a VC firm populated with a decent number of people who are wannabe founders, trying to jump on the latest fad, hoping to win the startup jackpot.

And (way back when it was small), I think a big part of the appeal was you could rub shoulders with some VC people and founders who actually made it.

> It doesn’t even seem to occur to people that one might pursue a doctoral degree because one is interested in the subject and wants to do research.

I think it does occur to people, but that's a choice for nepo babies and aspiring monks.

> It’s always talked about as if getting a PhD is just another rung in a long ladder towards… earning a lot of money? Not only that — it’s apparently such an obvious fact that it’s an unacknowledged (though implicitly present) assumption in almost every comment here.

I don't know about "earning a lot of money," but the whole PhD thing seems to have gotten super exploitative. Passion is one thing, but it's not a good thing to get taken advantage of. IMHO, long and difficult educational programs should be designed to guarantee a high chance of a reasonable stable and comfortable outcome.

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