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Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

nature.com

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Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#121

Post by vkou »

marklar423 wrote: post #116
janalsncm wrote: post #85

I considered a PhD in machine learning. It’s mostly downsides. Granted, most fields are not like this but: 1) The field moves too fast to focus on a single thing for 4 years. A lot of people were devastated when ChatGPT essentially solved their NLP tasks. 2) Cutting edge NLP/vision research is being done in industrial labs as much as universities. And industry will probably outgun you with equipment (GPUs) and high q…

What sort of benefits come from getting a Masters? Everyone I talk to seems to say a Masters in CompSci is useless, and that you may as well do a PhD instead.

> What sort of benefits come from getting a Masters

Google will hire you to work on moving protobufs around as an L4, instead of an L3.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#122

Post by cudgy »

null_shift wrote: post #97
dingnuts wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly the whole story sounds like a tall tale to me. > He also learned C++ in a weekend and was vastly better at it by the end of that weekend than most people I’ve met in industry I doubt this. Really, really doubt this. Sure, geniuses exist, but I don't buy it.

If he already knew how to code in other object oriented languages, and was really just learning C++ syntax over the weekend, it’s not as much of a stretch.

C++ is one of the most flexible and unopinionated languages you could ever encounter.

The idea that someone who knows a high-level object-oriented language could translate that to immediate success in low-level C++ syntax at a level higher than the experts that developed the libraries over a weekend is frankly fantastical.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#123

Post by b3ing »

ericmay wrote: post #117
WalterBright wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many research jobs at Microsoft, Google, etc., that require a STEM PhD.

True, but how competitive are those jobs to get? If one goes to a lesser-known university that has a PhD program and does related research are they getting an interview, or are these research jobs intended for specific university pipelines (Harvard, MIT, the usuals, etc.)?

Exactly, they will be H-1B visa worker over someone with a PHD from a non-Ivy League/non-big-name college

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#124

Post by jenny91 »

People seem to be getting stuck on the PhD opportunity cost piece for STEM. The matter of fact is that Americans don't do PhDs in STEM: if you look at the top schools and top departments, they are 70-90% international students. The PhD then is a phenomenal deal: by and large people are coming from places where FAANG jobs don't just fall on your lap at SF salaries. You get a free education in the US, and can jump straight into the job market as top-educated talent.

Also I think from NSF stats STEM PhDs are on a slow and upward trend, unlike the countries mentioned in the article.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#125

Post by ridiculous_leke »

WalterBright wrote: post #107
vonneumannstan wrote: post #92

In STEM in particular the opportunity costs of a PhD are extremely high and with little payoff at the end. Even if you want to stay in academia, which is the only real reason to do a PhD now, there are far more PhDs graduating per year than open faculty positions. Many get stuck in Postdoc or adjunct hell for years and can never get a tenure track role.

There are many research jobs at Microsoft, Google, etc., that require a STEM PhD.

Can't say for certain if they will be around 4-5 years down the line.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#126

Post by davidgay »

ericmay wrote: post #117
WalterBright wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are many research jobs at Microsoft, Google, etc., that require a STEM PhD.

True, but how competitive are those jobs to get? If one goes to a lesser-known university that has a PhD program and does related research are they getting an interview, or are these research jobs intended for specific university pipelines (Harvard, MIT, the usuals, etc.)?

The interview process for a place like Microsoft Research is essentially the same as for a faculty position - give a talk on your research, spend the day talking to researchers about your research, their research, convince them you have an interesting research agenda. Have dinner with more researchers, for a notionally more relaxed discussion :) [Tried, failed ;)]

As with university recruitment, this isn't a case of "you must come from specific pipelines", but of "you must have done interesting research, have an interesting plan". It's just that those two criteria are strongly correlated...

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#128

Post by roland35 »

marklar423 wrote: post #116
janalsncm wrote: post #85

I considered a PhD in machine learning. It’s mostly downsides. Granted, most fields are not like this but: 1) The field moves too fast to focus on a single thing for 4 years. A lot of people were devastated when ChatGPT essentially solved their NLP tasks. 2) Cutting edge NLP/vision research is being done in industrial labs as much as universities. And industry will probably outgun you with equipment (GPUs) and high q…

What sort of benefits come from getting a Masters? Everyone I talk to seems to say a Masters in CompSci is useless, and that you may as well do a PhD instead.

I believe a masters has helped me stand out as a candidate at least. Plus, I learned a great deal about computer engineering! The fundamentals have come in handy.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#129

Post by naniwaduni »

dgacmu wrote: post #57
dakiol wrote: post #37

I would do a PhD if they paid me enough. I don't mind if I cannot find a job that pays well with a PhD (I actually don't need a PhD for that); I would do the PhD because I like doing research. What would bother me is to spent ~4-5 years without a decent income. The scholarships here in western europe are just too low, and I cannot justify not working for private companies in favor or pursuing a PhD during ~4-5 years

Prior to the new administration I would have pointed out that US CS and engineering Ph.D.s are generally paid with a stipend that's "just enough to live on". There's even a website: https://csstipendrankings.org/ I disagree a little with their cost of living calculations - they're off in both directions for areas I know reasonably well. Most Ph.D. students can live for something under the MIT living wage calculations…

The MIT "living wage" figures are, to put it lightly, utterly deranged; more a statement of the purveyors's ideal of a first-world standard of living than a reflection of reality. If they are to be believed, then evidently grad students—or really like, half the population??—must not be alive.

As maligned as the poverty lines are—and they do have plenty of shortcomings—they are still a far closer approximation of "the true cost of living in a modern economy" than this drivel.

†No, really, go compare the "living wage" figures (https://livingwage.mit.edu/) with AMI stats (https://ami-lookup-tool.fanniemae.com/).

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#130

Post by seydor »

xyst wrote: post #104

Yup. Forget college or post-graduate degrees. This is no longer a meritocracy. We are in a grinding and grifting mindset. This is a jokers/jesters economy. Forget pricey degrees. Just start streaming, become controversial af, gain an audience of young followers, sell them on quasi-legal gambling platforms, rake in that cheddar. Or become a “political talking head” that doesn’t contribute to the conversation but inste…

Conversely, if you are doing a PhD, network with other scientists. Organize conferences and workshops, try again and again until you publish in a high impact journal, do minor contributions and insist on adding yourself to other people's papers, post on twitter and linkedin, talk to local newspapers, make yourself known. Apply for grants early , and add them to your CV so you get more grants later. It doesn't matter if your science is trivial or useless, you will have made it, get more grants, get invited to give talks, get to join committees and publish even more of the same. Bonus points if you belong in a protected minority. Academia has been gamified
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