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Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

nature.com

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Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#111

Post by garciasn »

jltsiren wrote: post #95
zitterbewegung wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$250k in savings in six years is doable with a salary of $125k after undergrad.

But can you still get $125k directly after undergrad? How many employers are willing to pay 2x the median wage to someone with no experience and no demonstrated skills, simply because they went to a school? To someone who is likely to make a net negative contribution until they learn how things work and require less guidance? To someone who is at a high risk of taking another job after a couple of years? It's more co…

FAANG or some company in a high-rent area where you could most definitely not save that kind of money, as far as I know.

And, I love how making $125K is some sort of great salary. I live in MN and while it’s above the median HHI for the state, it’s by no means a comfortable enough wage to save that kind of money unless your housing is covered by family or something.

Here in the MSP metro, you’re looking at $2500/mo for rent + utils or $3500/mo for mortgage + utils for what’s a pretty average living arrangement. Unless you’re making $200K+ you’re definitely not saving shit.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#112

Post by ckrapu »

romesmoke wrote: post #34

There are countless pragmatic reasons to avoid a PhD, and no doubt both the article and other commenters will bring them up. The most constructive thing I can do is share a personal perspective. I am 30 years old. I am working through my last few months as a computer engineering PhD student. Eventually, it went good. Not great (the world gives zero f*cks about my work, nobody has offered me a job yet), but not hellis…

> Being forced to survive an alien landscape can make you whole again.

I can't agree more. My sister died at the hardest point of my PhD and I buried myself in my work for nearly every waking second for years, confident that at least I was doing it for myself. I couldn't have done that if I were working a normal job.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#113

Post by icnexbe7 »

vonneumannstan wrote: post #92

In STEM in particular the opportunity costs of a PhD are extremely high and with little payoff at the end. Even if you want to stay in academia, which is the only real reason to do a PhD now, there are far more PhDs graduating per year than open faculty positions. Many get stuck in Postdoc or adjunct hell for years and can never get a tenure track role.

it’s literally a pyramid scheme

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#114

Post by parpfish »

zitterbewegung wrote: post #82
fhars wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The counter party to your opportunity costs doesn't send collection agencies, though.

$250k in savings in six years is doable with a salary of $125k after undergrad.

If you’re doing a PhD in anything other than the highly paid field of “computer stuff”, the opportunity costs look much, much different.

When I did my PhD, I was making roughly the same money as all of my friends (none of whom were in tech) except I had waaay more freedom and job satisfaction.

If your other opportunities are things like a school teacher or generic “office job”, a PhD program doesn’t really have an opportunity cost penalty

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#115

Post by barrenko »

icnexbe7 wrote: post #113
vonneumannstan wrote: post #92

In STEM in particular the opportunity costs of a PhD are extremely high and with little payoff at the end. Even if you want to stay in academia, which is the only real reason to do a PhD now, there are far more PhDs graduating per year than open faculty positions. Many get stuck in Postdoc or adjunct hell for years and can never get a tenure track role.

it’s literally a pyramid scheme

It's a luxury consumption good.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#116

Post by marklar423 »

janalsncm wrote: post #85

I considered a PhD in machine learning. It’s mostly downsides. Granted, most fields are not like this but: 1) The field moves too fast to focus on a single thing for 4 years. A lot of people were devastated when ChatGPT essentially solved their NLP tasks. 2) Cutting edge NLP/vision research is being done in industrial labs as much as universities. And industry will probably outgun you with equipment (GPUs) and high q…

What sort of benefits come from getting a Masters? Everyone I talk to seems to say a Masters in CompSci is useless, and that you may as well do a PhD instead.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#117

Post by ericmay »

WalterBright wrote: post #107
vonneumannstan wrote: post #92

In STEM in particular the opportunity costs of a PhD are extremely high and with little payoff at the end. Even if you want to stay in academia, which is the only real reason to do a PhD now, there are far more PhDs graduating per year than open faculty positions. Many get stuck in Postdoc or adjunct hell for years and can never get a tenure track role.

There are many research jobs at Microsoft, Google, etc., that require a STEM PhD.

True, but how competitive are those jobs to get? If one goes to a lesser-known university that has a PhD program and does related research are they getting an interview, or are these research jobs intended for specific university pipelines (Harvard, MIT, the usuals, etc.)?

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#118

Post by ckrapu »

Anecdotally, a prestigious consulting firm (one of McKinsey/Bain/BCG) essentially stopped hiring MBAs and instead hired several friends from my PhD cohort despite the B-School ranking hire than most of our graduate programs.

I've always wondered what signal they were acting on. Perhaps the value of the MBA has been watered down, or it was just too easy to game the admissions.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#119

Post by parpfish »

yodsanklai wrote: post #101

As usual, lot of PhD bashing in the comments. My experience was generally positive. The good things 1. I had mostly fun doing it. Being paid to learn things is great. 2. I got to work in different countries, and travel to many places 3. I was able to have more than one career. PhD + academia, before switching to industry. Gave me more perspectives. 4. I did learn a few things and skills (public speaking, I learned a…

I had a ton of fun in my PhD. It probably wasn’t the best route if I was trying to maximize total lifetime earnings, but I’m happy with the route I took.

In fact I liked it enough that I often joke that my retirement plan will be to get into another PhD program for the stipend/insurance and just do projects to help some junior prof get their career going

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#120

Post by BeetleB »

mrguyorama wrote: post #96
dingnuts wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly the whole story sounds like a tall tale to me. > He also learned C++ in a weekend and was vastly better at it by the end of that weekend than most people I’ve met in industry I doubt this. Really, really doubt this. Sure, geniuses exist, but I don't buy it.

Having seen physicists code, I REALLY doubt this.

Bah! Let's go invert the matrix!
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