Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

nature.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

201–210 of 485 posts

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#201

Post by [deleted] »

declan_roberts wrote: post #169
xanderlewis wrote: post #165

From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising. It doesn’t even seem to occur to people that one might pursue a doctoral degree because one is interested in the subject and wants to do research . It’s always talked about as if getting a PhD is just another rung in a long ladder towards… earning a lot of money? Not only that — it’s apparently such an obvious…

The only difference between a PhD and a hobby is money, or the presumption of it indirectly (certain jobs, etc) Or else we just call it pursing our natural hobbies and interests. You don't need to go to school for that. If you didn't need more money you wouldn't seek the accreditation.

[deleted]

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#202

Post by magic_man »

vonneumannstan wrote: post #92

In STEM in particular the opportunity costs of a PhD are extremely high and with little payoff at the end. Even if you want to stay in academia, which is the only real reason to do a PhD now, there are far more PhDs graduating per year than open faculty positions. Many get stuck in Postdoc or adjunct hell for years and can never get a tenure track role.

Also it makes getting visa way easier.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#203

Post by jvanderbot »

palmotea wrote: post #180
xanderlewis wrote: post #165

From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising. It doesn’t even seem to occur to people that one might pursue a doctoral degree because one is interested in the subject and wants to do research . It’s always talked about as if getting a PhD is just another rung in a long ladder towards… earning a lot of money? Not only that — it’s apparently such an obvious…

> From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising. Not surprising at all. It's a forum run by a VC firm populated with a decent number of people who are wannabe founders, trying to jump on the latest fad, hoping to win the startup jackpot. And (way back when it was small), I think a big part of the appeal was you could rub shoulders with some VC people and fo…

I don't get it.

I was neither a nepo baby or aspiring monk. What I was, was a kid from a non academic family who wanted more than my small town education could provide. I wanted to push myself to learn at a deeper level and prove it by becoming one of a different crowd of technologists. Maybe these are misguided motivations but they were undeniable and not at all about asceticism or idle riches. It was absolutely worth it.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#204

Post by lotsoweiners »

globalnode wrote: post #199
yieldcrv wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It doesn’t even seem to occur to people that one might pursue a doctoral degree because one is interested in the subject and wants to do research Why is it surprising? The market is saying most people don’t have that privilege and academia is still in denial about that and completely out of touch, your surprise suggests you are… in touch? if this was a standardized test question, which you’re probably good at, you…

Thats a depressing outlook. I feel the lower levels of uni have been co-opted as you say, but once you're passed the undergrad level I think it would become more about interest in the subject and less about a job, don't you think? (Sadly I may be wrong)

Lots of jobs require (or at least prefer) candidates with a masters degree at least for more senior positions. Not sure that interest is the reason why people would be going for these degrees.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#205

Post by darkhorse222 »

xanderlewis wrote: post #165

From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising. It doesn’t even seem to occur to people that one might pursue a doctoral degree because one is interested in the subject and wants to do research . It’s always talked about as if getting a PhD is just another rung in a long ladder towards… earning a lot of money? Not only that — it’s apparently such an obvious…

It's a bit like being a teacher. You get paid terrible money which is not an abstract thing, that has a real life impact. And you have to deal with the politics of academia, which is like the politics of industry but with less leverage to you.

It's just not a great win in any way unless your main thing in life is your job being your main intellectual stimulant.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#206

Post by michaelt »

NeutralCrane wrote: post #195
xanderlewis wrote: post #165

From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising. It doesn’t even seem to occur to people that one might pursue a doctoral degree because one is interested in the subject and wants to do research . It’s always talked about as if getting a PhD is just another rung in a long ladder towards… earning a lot of money? Not only that — it’s apparently such an obvious…

Cost of living and income inequality are soaring. Huge swaths of the population are living in crippling debt because they believed that it was worth it to spend tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of dollars to go to school and learn about what interested them, only to find out it didn’t lead anywhere and they have hamstrung themselves financially for the rest of their lives. It shouldn’t be surprising that people ar…

HN has been like this forever, it's not a recent thing.

When the tech job market and startup ecosystem is weak, HN will say you shouldn't do a PhD because of the cost of living and the worrying job market once you get out.

When the tech job market and startup ecosystem is strong, HN will say you shouldn't do a PhD because of the opportunity cost and the attractive job market that'll pay six figures to anyone with a pulse.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#207

Post by Mistletoe »

yoyohello13 wrote: post #178
xanderlewis wrote: post #165

From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising. It doesn’t even seem to occur to people that one might pursue a doctoral degree because one is interested in the subject and wants to do research . It’s always talked about as if getting a PhD is just another rung in a long ladder towards… earning a lot of money? Not only that — it’s apparently such an obvious…

> From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising. Lol! Are you new here? Y-combinator is literally about selling your soul to VC.

I'm slowly, very slowly, realizing this and that my objections to this are quite literally pissing into the wind to the wrong crowd. Begging and pleading for people to make tech that doesn't torture and depress the average user seems to just fall upon deaf ears, because all that ever mattered to them was the money.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#208

Post by dgacmu »

declan_roberts wrote: post #169
xanderlewis wrote: post #165

From the discussion here, it seems that HN turns out to be a very money-centric place. Somewhat surprising. It doesn’t even seem to occur to people that one might pursue a doctoral degree because one is interested in the subject and wants to do research . It’s always talked about as if getting a PhD is just another rung in a long ladder towards… earning a lot of money? Not only that — it’s apparently such an obvious…

The only difference between a PhD and a hobby is money, or the presumption of it indirectly (certain jobs, etc) Or else we just call it pursing our natural hobbies and interests. You don't need to go to school for that. If you didn't need more money you wouldn't seek the accreditation.

Nah. The difference is one of (learning) rigor. Intellectual and scientific. You learn a lot in the process of getting a Ph.D. about how to think, how to analyze, and how to research.

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#209

Post by oneplane »

aaronblohowiak wrote: post #200
KPGv2 wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not surprised the richest man in the world will commit all manner of sin, because one more dollar might be the one to fill that gaping hole where his heart should be.

This doesn’t contribute to the discussion

Sure it does, wealth hoarding is a significant factor in students enrolling in doctoral degrees. Be it because it is a step towards more wealth, or because it's not (and as such a group that might be a good fit, but prefer more wealth over deeper education will no longer enrol).

Combine that with very visible people actively promoting that, or representing that, you get yourself a discussion about knowledge, money, and capitalism. And if you dig deep enough you get current affairs and later on, philosophy involved as well.

If you were to remove all incentives on "get educated so you get paid more" and only focus on "get educated so you'll enjoy what you learn more" that might change the enrolment, but as a side-effect, it might also make it harder to find enough people for all manner of work.

Going down this thought a bit more, how much is enough? (money, knowledge) Is there such a thing as a goal or limit? Or better yet, is there a fixed quantity where it's all turned into a zero-sum game? Probably not.

So if someone will put effort in their hoard, would it then be good or bad for society at large? And either way, would such a person do it regardless of the side-effects on everyone else? Even if it has an outsized impact? Would we then not want to talk about someone with a big hoard trying to add a relatively small amount to that hoard at a cost that might be relatively big for everyone else?

Re: Fewer students are enrolling in doctoral degrees

#210

Post by jackcosgrove »

sweeter wrote: post #156
nluken wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A PhD isn't like a MBA which is meant mostly for the credential and associated pay bump. It's a research degree that you get if you want to work in academia or in a private research lab. If you're evaluating it purely by its economic value, of course it's not going to make sense, but that assessment misses why people pursue these degrees in the first place.

It also dismisses the effect it has on society entirely. In a sane world, we would enable anyone who wants to pursue a PhD in hopes in advancing things like medical science or our understanding of the world. The fact that people really can only care about the economic value education can bring, and the fact we all act like that's normal, is very radicalizing to me.

I disagree. More people have a desire to advance our understanding than have the ability to advance our understanding.
Post reply on HN