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Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

marcan.st

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Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#641

Post by mustache_kimono »

chongli wrote: post #623
mustache_kimono wrote: post #606

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You don't have to search online forums and mailing lists very long to find countless others like this. So -- you're bothered by people on the internet, but not specifically the Rust for Linux people or the Rust project people? I guess -- I'm sorry people are saying mean things about a programming language on the internet? There are also just as many (more!) anti-Rust partisans out there too, who say lots of crazy s…

People are free to think whatever they want, and, if they what to rewrite things in Rust or whatever language, that's how many of us learn! Yes, they're free to rewrite their own projects in Rust. They aren't free to force others to do the same to their projects. That's what this is all about: a prominent R4L community leader tried to use brigading and shaming to force a Linux kernel maintainer into accepting and mai…

> Yes, they're free to rewrite their own projects in Rust.

Um, or any other they so choose?

> Yes, they're free to rewrite their own projects in Rust. They aren't free to force others to do the same to their projects.

Where is anyone forcing anyone else to do a rewrite in Rust?

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#642

Post by ActorNightly »

margana wrote: post #210
Octoth0rpe wrote: post #9

Well that's unfortunate. It seems like there's a balancing act between the benefits of writing drivers in Rust (easier, more maintainable), and getting those drivers mainlined (apparently soul-destroying, morale killing), I wonder if the Asahi team is considering simply abandoning linux in favor of something more rust friendly (redox being an obvious candidate, but maybe one of the BSDs?). Given the narrow set of har…

The goal of Asahi Linux is to create a Linux distribution that is compatible with Apple devices. Using Rust is not a goal of the project, it's just something they decided to use due to personal preference, and is making the process of upstreaming anything much harder. If anything, it works against them in achieving their goal. Abandoning Rust is a possibility, abandoning Linux is not.

Its sad that they chose Apple, instead of like investing time into the upcoming ARM laptops to make the Linux more optimized on them. That talent should not be wasted on tech jewelry.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#643

Post by kelnos »

emptysongglass wrote: post #546
KennyBlanken wrote: post #408

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Assuming everyone is acting in good faith Why would we assume that Ted repeatedly using strawman fallacies, bleating appeals to emotion and acting like a victim...all the while shouting people down...evidence of "acting in good faith"? When you shout over someone like that you're nothing but a bully. > he fails to address the concern that a change they introduce would error downstream and someone else had to clean…

I don't understand how abusive bullies like Ted are allowed the privilege of being a senior kernel developer. This feels, in the end, like the fault of Linus, for allowing abusive maintainers to maintain their grip.

Up until recently (assuming you believe he's genuinely reformed), Torvalds was also one of those abusive bullies, remember.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#644

Post by School-Cotton »

Keyframe wrote: post #608
School-Cotton wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Buying MacBooks and doing your development work in a full screen Linux VM (with e.g. UTM) is a surprisingly good solution, that’s what I’ve done for the past year with no regrets.

How's battery in such a case? Should still be on the great side, no?

I don’t know whether it’s better or worse than using macOS by itself, but it sure feels better than any other laptop I’ve tried.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#645

Post by tonymet »

His two major complaints are demanding consumers and the rejection of upstreaming his rust driver patches. He has some legitimate complaints since users depend on kernel features like Mesa Integration and Docker support for GPUs, which are critical now that people are training & doing inference .

I still think the best outcome is to fork and recruit some lieutenants for community management. To me the community is losing a lot with his departure. His complaints are legitimate and hopefully linux kernel team can better accommodate his patches. many distros and corporations deliver tremendous value from their forks and it's a better solution than quitting.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#646

Post by mustache_kimono »

fluoridation wrote: post #631
mustache_kimono wrote: post #616

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In fact, he said that as his very first reply to that thread: I think it's clear from the surrounding context that you are likely over-interpreting some of Hector's comments. What is the losing side of history here? There is simply too much C code in the Linux project to say "stop this ride, I want to get off and only use Rust" right now. This is a fight about some new code . Rust drivers in kernel and perhaps in t…

As I read it, "the losing side of history" refers to insisting on using C, possibly at all. The last part about the "world moving forward towards memory-safe languages" doesn't suggest a limited scope for the statement. The thread was not about Rust drivers, it was about adding Rust code to the DMA module. I.e. about mixing two different languages in a single module, thus requiring being knowledgeable about both lang…

> The thread was not about Rust drivers, it was about adding Rust code to the DMA module. I.e. about mixing two different languages in a single module

AFAIK this is false. The patch was CCed to the maintainer as FYI, but all the code was in a Rust a module binding to the C DMA interface. If I'm wrong, show me the code.

See the discussion here: https://lkml.org/lkml/2025/1/9/398

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#647

Post by jrvidal »

ajross wrote: post #513
jrvidal wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Rust compiler/language has no notion of semver. Saying "Rust is unstable b/c semver blah blah" is a tad imprecise. Semver only matters in the context of judging API changes of a certain library (crate). > The only reason to do semantic versioning is compatibility Sure. But "compatibility" needs to be defined precisely. The definition used by the Rust crate ecosystem might be slightly looser than others, but I thi…

> But "compatibility" needs to be defined precisely. Compatibility is defined precisely! You're definition requires scare quotes. You want to define it "Precisely" so that you can permit incompatible behavior. No one who cares about compatibility does that, it's just an excuse. Look, other languages do this differently. Those of use using C99 booleans know we need to include a separate header to avoid colliding with…

I think you are trying very hard to disagree on basic stuff that works very similarly across different language ecosystems, and (looking at other responses) that you're very angry. Disengaging.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#648

Post by bmacho »

iczero wrote: post #614
bmacho wrote: post #607

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This sounds so rough. I can't imagine pouring your heart out into this labor of love and continue to have to face something like this. Or: he shouldn't steal people's time with false advertising :shrug: Also if he wants to create an operating system, then these aren't even requests, but bug reports. So the users ate his false advertising, spent time to try out his system, then spent some more time to file bug repor…

Where is an example of this "false advertising"?

Actually they have a device support page: https://asahilinux.org/fedora/#device-support

I can't imagine then what's his problem. I don't get offended by people that can't even read. I don't normally call them people let alone entitled :\ Set up a bot that links them the device support page, and problem solved? I don't get it

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#649

Post by [deleted] »

xyzsparetimexyz wrote: post #255
thw8419 wrote: post #97

The Rust situation was handled badly. Two languages (one of which has panics and all sorts of version issues) in one kernel are clearly not viable. Linus should have put his foot down and mandated C instead of stringing people along. That of course was difficult in the corporate environment of 2014-2024. Perhaps he was forced to do it. In many areas, sanity has returned, so perhaps we can get clearer messaging again…

Plenty of people disagree with your rust take. Are you a Linux maintainer?

[deleted]

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#650

Post by popcalc »

xyzsparetimexyz wrote: post #255
thw8419 wrote: post #97

The Rust situation was handled badly. Two languages (one of which has panics and all sorts of version issues) in one kernel are clearly not viable. Linus should have put his foot down and mandated C instead of stringing people along. That of course was difficult in the corporate environment of 2014-2024. Perhaps he was forced to do it. In many areas, sanity has returned, so perhaps we can get clearer messaging again…

Plenty of people disagree with your rust take. Are you a Linux maintainer?

It's obvious many are seething at this news. People, please try to practice healthy coping techniques.
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