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Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

marcan.st

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Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#601

Post by LexiMax »

perching_aix wrote: post #589
tharne wrote: post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ted Tso'o accusing the speaker of wanting to convert people to the "religion promulgated by Rust" Given the online temper tantrum thrown by marcan, Ted Tso'o's comment seems totally reasonable, regardless of one's opinion of Rust in the Linux kernel.

> tharne 4 minutes ago | parent | context | flag | on: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead > > > Ted Tso'o accusing the speaker of wanting to convert people to the "religion promulgated by Rust" > That seems totally reasonable. Putting aside the technical merits of the Rust language for the moment, the Rust community suffers from many of the same issues currently hobbling the Democratic Party in the United States.…

> 99% of insufferable Rust vs. C interactions I've come across it was the C fella being the asshole. So sorry, but no, not very convincing or "totally reasonable" at all.

This has also been my observation as a C++ developer who finds themselves in a fair few C/C++-aligned spaces. There are exceptions, but in most of those spaces the amount of Rust Derangement Syndrome I've witnessed is honestly kind of tiresome at this point.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#602

Post by jodrellblank »

KennyBlanken wrote: post #329
diggan wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And then he can't help himself. After being so reasonable, he throws shade on Rust. Shade that is just unfortunately, just false? Many discussions online (and offline) suffer from a huge-group of people who just can't stop themselves from making their knee-jerk reactions public, and then not thinking about it more. I remember the "Filesystem in Rust" video ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiPp9YEBV0Q&t=1529s ) whe…

> You can literally shove facts in someone's face, and they won't admit to being wrong or misunderstand, and instead continue to argue against some points whose premise isn't even true. It's called a strawman fallacy, and like all fallacies, it's used because the user is either intellectually lazy and can't be bothered to come up with a proper argument, or there isn't a proper argument and the person they're using it…

If an honest alien says "we don't want to convert humans to our religion" that means you can have whatever religion you want. If a dishonest alien says it, it might mean "we don't want to convert humans because we are going to kill all humans", it's selectively true - they aren't going to convert us - and leaves us to imagine that we can have our own religion. But it's not the whole truth and we actually won't be able to[1].

An honest "no one will be forced to use Rust in the Kernel" would be exactly what it says. A paltering reading could be "we want to make Rust the only language used in the Kernel but you won't be forced to use it because you can quit". i.e. if you are "literally shoving facts in someone's face" and they don't change then they might think you are not telling the whole truth, or are simply lying about your goals.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paltering

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#604

Post by Salgat »

bayindirh wrote: post #134
galoisscobi wrote: post #13

> But then also came the entitled users. This time, it wasn’t about stealing games, it was about features. “When is Thunderbolt coming?” “Asahi is useless to me until I can use monitors over USB-C” “The battery life sucks compared to macOS” (nobody ever complained when compared to x86 laptops…) “I can’t even check my CPU temperature” (yes, I seriously got that one). This sounds so rough. I can't imagine pouring your…

[Putting my dusty Linux Distro Maintainer Hat on] First of all, I wholeheartedly applaud Marcan for carrying the project this far. They, both as individuals and as a team proper, did great things. What I can say is a rest is well deserved at this point, because he really poured his soul into this and worn himself down. On the other hand, I'll need to say something, however not in bad faith. He needs to stop fighting…

It's simple statistics. With a large enough sample size, you're going to always have a few very loud outliers.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#606

Post by mustache_kimono »

chongli wrote: post #325
mustache_kimono wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Brigading has no place in open source communities. Agreed. > There are some members of the Rust community who believe C is obsolete and that C programmers should either switch to Rust or get out of the way. This is an extremely toxic attitude that has no place in the Linux kernel! Would you care to share some examples of the Rust for Linux community who have said this? I'm unaware of Hector or anyone else saying an…

I didn't say Rust for Linux community, I said Rust community. Here's an example [1]. You don't have to search online forums and mailing lists very long to find countless others like this. The problem with the brigading (which has been done by the Rust for Linux community) is that it invites these zealots into the conversation. It's totally inappropriate and not at all constructive towards a compromise. Plus the state…

> You don't have to search online forums and mailing lists very long to find countless others like this.

So -- you're bothered by people on the internet, but not specifically the Rust for Linux people or the Rust project people? I guess -- I'm sorry people are saying mean things about a programming language on the internet?

There are also just as many (more!) anti-Rust partisans out there too, who say lots of crazy stuff too. I'm not sure there is much to be done about it.

> Yet there are countless people in the wider Rust community that believe Rust is the future and every line of C code still in use should be rewritten in Rust.

So what? Does your C code still run? I'm struggling to understand what the problem is. People are free to think whatever they want, and, if they what to rewrite things in Rust or Swift or Hylo or Zig or Java, that's how many of them learn!

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#607

Post by bmacho »

galoisscobi wrote: post #13

> But then also came the entitled users. This time, it wasn’t about stealing games, it was about features. “When is Thunderbolt coming?” “Asahi is useless to me until I can use monitors over USB-C” “The battery life sucks compared to macOS” (nobody ever complained when compared to x86 laptops…) “I can’t even check my CPU temperature” (yes, I seriously got that one). This sounds so rough. I can't imagine pouring your…

> This sounds so rough. I can't imagine pouring your heart out into this labor of love and continue to have to face something like this.

Or: he shouldn't steal people's time with false advertising :shrug:

Also if he wants to create an operating system, then these aren't even requests, but bug reports. So the users ate his false advertising, spent time to try out his system, then spent some more time to file bug reports, and then he calls them "entitled users".

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#608

Post by Keyframe »

School-Cotton wrote: post #67
Keyframe wrote: post #26

Damn shame, both for the burnout and for the project. I was talking to the team which laptops next to get and kind of everyone wanted something like Arm with battery and performance and there are only MBPs (except damn notch) out there. Except no one wants MacOS. And then there's Asahi. I said it might come down to exactly this, what's happening now.

Buying MacBooks and doing your development work in a full screen Linux VM (with e.g. UTM) is a surprisingly good solution, that’s what I’ve done for the past year with no regrets.

How's battery in such a case? Should still be on the great side, no?

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#609

Post by rcxdude »

margana wrote: post #210
Octoth0rpe wrote: post #9

Well that's unfortunate. It seems like there's a balancing act between the benefits of writing drivers in Rust (easier, more maintainable), and getting those drivers mainlined (apparently soul-destroying, morale killing), I wonder if the Asahi team is considering simply abandoning linux in favor of something more rust friendly (redox being an obvious candidate, but maybe one of the BSDs?). Given the narrow set of har…

The goal of Asahi Linux is to create a Linux distribution that is compatible with Apple devices. Using Rust is not a goal of the project, it's just something they decided to use due to personal preference, and is making the process of upstreaming anything much harder. If anything, it works against them in achieving their goal. Abandoning Rust is a possibility, abandoning Linux is not.

I think neither is a possibilty: there is zero appetite for rewrite what they've written in rust in C, I think the most likely result of it not being upstreamed is it becomes a long-lived fork.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#610

Post by dullcrisp »

subjectsigma wrote: post #272
rdtsc wrote: post #209

A person can be in a tough spot personally and then things seem to spiral out of control around them because that just cannot be 100% isolated from professional stuff or other spheres of life. It seems like this might have happened to Hector based on the post. We've all been there and that part is completely understandable. > I get that some people might not have liked my Mastodon posts. Yes, I can be abrasive someti…

I started reading the article, having little background on kernel drama, and ended it thinking to myself, “Jesus, what did this poor guy do to deserve all this hate?” Then I read the thread you linked and thought, “Oh. That.” To be clear nobody deserves to be harassed or threatened, but Hector’s messages make it clear he is astoundingly good at making himself into a victim of injustice. When his messages mentioned “c…

Is it possible to agree that having one’s work compared to cancer could be insulting but also that trying to publicly shame people about it isn’t the right response?
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