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Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

marcan.st

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Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#581

Post by NooneAtAll3 »

-__---____-ZXyw wrote: post #447

One aspect of all of this which I haven't seen directly addressed[0] is the question of what might be going on with Torvalds and the Rust Foundation from a longer term, dare I say "political" standpoint. Torvalds seems to usually position himself as a kind of anti-political, code-is-code type, but then, perhaps there's more to him and to this story? There's an awful lot of money and power associated with operating sy…

> Torvalds seems to usually position himself as a kind of anti-political

except when he suddenly wasn't

he lost my respect the moment he went there

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#582

Post by jay_kyburz »

KennyBlanken wrote: post #408
radiospiel wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have used that video as an exercise in how not to achieve change. Assuming everyone is acting in good faith, the presenter missed the opportunity to build consensus before the talk, Tsu unwilling to budge a bit, but most of all the moderator unable to prevent the situation from exploding. This could have been handled much better by each of them. In contrast to the parent: yes, the presenter says „you don’t have to…

> Assuming everyone is acting in good faith Why would we assume that Ted repeatedly using strawman fallacies, bleating appeals to emotion and acting like a victim...all the while shouting people down...evidence of "acting in good faith"? When you shout over someone like that you're nothing but a bully. > he fails to address the concern that a change they introduce would error downstream and someone else had to clean…

I'm not a rust or c developer.

> As has been exhaustively explained by others in previous HN threads and elsewhere: the Rust developers were asking to be informed of changes so that Rust developers could update their code to accommodate the change.

I don't understand why you don't see this as "a really big deal". The C developers make a breaking change. They fix all the C code, then they write an email to the Rust devs explaining the changes.

Then the process of making the change stops, and the C devs have to wait for a Rust dev to read the email, review the C changes, fix and test the resulting rust, and check in the update. (including any review process there is on the rust side.)

Is it hours, days, or weeks? Are there 2 people that know and can fix the code, or are there 100's. Do the C devs have visibility into the Rust org to know its being well run and risks are mitigated?

This is adding a hard dependency on a third party organization.

I would never dream of introducing this kind of dependency in my company or code.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#583

Post by arp242 »

kllrnohj wrote: post #523
arp242 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really follow what's objectionable about Ted's email, or why it's being singled out. It matches my experience as an open source maintainer pretty accurately. It's also pretty constructive (it goes on to lay out a plan on how to constructively proceed and make everyone happy).

What's objectionable is primarily the phrase "thin blue line" - it's highly politically charged language: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thin_blue_line One would hope it was just a particularly bad gaffe, but it could also be an insight into how he actually views himself as a maintainer which is not great.

Eh, right. The "far right" seem to appropriate every other thing these days. I can't keep up.

In the context of a long-term good faith maintainer in what is clearly a constructive good faith email, assigning bad faith meaning to a simple phrase is in itself a bad faith action IMHO.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#584

Post by estebank »

ajross wrote: post #513
jrvidal wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Rust compiler/language has no notion of semver. Saying "Rust is unstable b/c semver blah blah" is a tad imprecise. Semver only matters in the context of judging API changes of a certain library (crate). > The only reason to do semantic versioning is compatibility Sure. But "compatibility" needs to be defined precisely. The definition used by the Rust crate ecosystem might be slightly looser than others, but I thi…

> But "compatibility" needs to be defined precisely. Compatibility is defined precisely! You're definition requires scare quotes. You want to define it "Precisely" so that you can permit incompatible behavior. No one who cares about compatibility does that, it's just an excuse. Look, other languages do this differently. Those of use using C99 booleans know we need to include a separate header to avoid colliding with…

The fundamental issue here is that any kind of inference can have issues on the edges. If you write code using fully qualified paths all the time, then this semver footgun can never occur.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#585

Post by adamrezich »

anonfordays wrote: post #412
nindalf wrote: post #93

Marcan links to an email by Ted Tso'o ( https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/20250208204416.GL1130956@mit.ed... ) that is interesting to read. Although it starts on a polarising note ("thin blue line"), it does a good job of explaining the difficulties that Linux maintainers face and why they make the choices they do. It makes sense to be extremely adversarial about accepting code because they're on the hook for maintaining…

If comments as benign as "thin blue line" causes fragile entryist/activists to flee, I say Ted and the kernel team are doing the right thing. Projects as critical as the Linux kernel shouldn't be battlegrounds for the grievance of the week, nor should they be platforms for proselytizing. Marcan and others like him leave long paths of destruction in their wake. Lots of projects have been turned upsidedown by the drama…

Quite wild to see this being downvoted, because by downvoting, surely one implies the inverse of your post to be the truth, such that projects such as the Linux kernel should be battlegrounds for the grievance of the week, should be platforms for proselytizing, and so forth.

Very strange to see little to no empathy for kernel maintainers in this situation.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#587

Post by LexiMax »

tharne wrote: post #550
nindalf wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you watch that YouTube link, you'll see the same guy Ted Tso'o accusing the speaker of wanting to convert people to the "religion promulgated by Rust". I think he apologised for this flagrant comment, but this email shows he hasn't changed his behaviour in the slightest.

> Ted Tso'o accusing the speaker of wanting to convert people to the "religion promulgated by Rust" Given the online temper tantrum thrown by marcan, Ted Tso'o's comment seems totally reasonable, regardless of one's opinion of Rust in the Linux kernel.

Quite frankly, if I had the realization that despite assurances to the contrary, that my contributions to a project had been sabotaged for months or even years up to that point, I would have also had a hard time keeping a smile on my face.

This is ultimately what this drama comes down to. Not if Rust should or shouldn't be in the kernel, but with kernel maintainers' broken promises and being coy with intentions until there is no other option than to be honest, with the reveal that whatever time and effort a contributor had put in was a waste from the start.

It seems like the folks who didn't want Rust in the kernel will be getting their way in the end, but I had better never hear another complaint about the kernel not being able to attract new talent.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#588

Post by neonate »

bezier-curve wrote: post #4

I think if I was indicted by Linus and told I'm a problem over spreading awareness about a position on social media, I too would burn out pretty quickly. That's how you crush motivation. There's a deeper issue in open-source culture where harshness and gatekeeping drive away passionate contributors.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=42972062 ("Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel" from last week, 1014 comments)

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#589

Post by perching_aix »

tharne wrote: post #550
nindalf wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you watch that YouTube link, you'll see the same guy Ted Tso'o accusing the speaker of wanting to convert people to the "religion promulgated by Rust". I think he apologised for this flagrant comment, but this email shows he hasn't changed his behaviour in the slightest.

> Ted Tso'o accusing the speaker of wanting to convert people to the "religion promulgated by Rust" Given the online temper tantrum thrown by marcan, Ted Tso'o's comment seems totally reasonable, regardless of one's opinion of Rust in the Linux kernel.

> tharne 4 minutes ago | parent | context | flag | on: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

>

> > Ted Tso'o accusing the speaker of wanting to convert people to the "religion promulgated by Rust"

> That seems totally reasonable. Putting aside the technical merits of the Rust language for the moment, the Rust community suffers from many of the same issues currently hobbling the Democratic Party in the United States. Namely, it often acts like a fundamentalist religion where anyone who dares dissent or question something is immediately accused of one or another moral failings. People are sick of this nonsense and are willing to say something about it.

It's really interesting that every time I open a thread like this, countless people come out swinging with this claim that Rust is totally this religion and cult, while the rest of the thread will be full of C evangelism and vague rhetorics about how nothing like this ever works, while actively contributing to making sure it won't this time either.

99% of insufferable Rust vs. C interactions I've come across it was the C fella being the asshole. So sorry, but no, not very convincing or "totally reasonable" at all.

Re: Resigning as Asahi Linux project lead

#590

Post by arp242 »

o11c wrote: post #579
arp242 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really follow what's objectionable about Ted's email, or why it's being singled out. It matches my experience as an open source maintainer pretty accurately. It's also pretty constructive (it goes on to lay out a plan on how to constructively proceed and make everyone happy).

[flagged]

> widely understood to mean "and this is why police should be allowed to shoot black people without being questioned about it".

Or maybe it's not as "widely understood" to mean that?

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