U.K. demand for a back door to Apple data threatens Americans, lawmakers say • Hacker News Board

Re: U.K. demand for a back door to Apple data threatens Americans, lawmakers say

#161

Post by nickburns » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 7:32 PM UTC

sneak wrote: post #157

Nifty3929 wrote: post #128

I keep saying this, and nobody believes me, but I'm just going to keep trying: These things happen because so often we focus the privacy conversation on corporations, which is exactly where the governments want it to be. My controversial but strong opinion is that privacy from corporations matters very little, but privacy from governments matters very much. We need to stop allowing the conversation to get distracted…

Apple gives data to the United States government on over 70,000 user accounts per year without a warrant. Anything Apple knows, the FBI can know, without probable cause.

Not doubting this whatsoever, but what are you citing here?

Re: U.K. demand for a back door to Apple data threatens Americans, lawmakers say

#162

Post by hnlmorg » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 7:32 PM UTC

gruez wrote: post #103

hnlmorg wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really don’t like the UK governments stance on cyber security / counter-terrorism / et al either. In fact, as a UK citizen I’ve actively campaigned against a great many of their policies. However this “thought police” and “arrested for posting memes” comment that often gets pointed on here is itself a nonsense meme. What actually happened was people were arrested for instigating riots. This is no different to what…

>However this “thought police” and “arrested for posting memes” comment that often gets pointed on here is itself a nonsense meme. >What actually happened was people were arrested for instigating riots. This is no different to what happened in the US regarding the Capital Hill riots — people who helped organise it online were arrested too. According to: https://news.sky.com/story/jordan-parlour-facebook-user-jail...…

Did you actually read that article. In there it even stated there was a pattern of behaviour and that his comments on Facebook had been shared with thousands and directly resulted criminal damage. Not only that, that his comments were intended to cause criminal damage and result in physical attacks against immigrants.

What you’ve done is selectively quoted a small subset of portions from that article to misrepresent the full trial.

Which is exactly why I had to write my comment defending the UK government earlier. Believe me, I really don’t want to defend the government.

The UK government get a lot wrong when it comes to legislation regarding technology. In fact they get nearly everything wrong and I’ve frequently had to have words my MPs about it (not that that’s done any good). But they categorically do not lock people up just for shitposting. At best that’s just an exaggeration. At worst it’s an out right misrepresentation of the facts.

Re: U.K. demand for a back door to Apple data threatens Americans, lawmakers say

#163

Post by organsnyder » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 7:33 PM UTC

ta1243 wrote: post #152

Nifty3929 wrote: post #128

I keep saying this, and nobody believes me, but I'm just going to keep trying: These things happen because so often we focus the privacy conversation on corporations, which is exactly where the governments want it to be. My controversial but strong opinion is that privacy from corporations matters very little, but privacy from governments matters very much. We need to stop allowing the conversation to get distracted…

I can hold my government accountable via the polling booth I have no control over Apple or Amazon or Alphabet. I can petition the government through the court system if it tries to put me in jail, the government functions with a massive series of checks and balances. I can't petition google, they are an unelected uncontrollable unaccountable entity that not even the government has power over

> I can hold my government accountable via the polling booth

Yes, but elected officials have used private information to disenfranchise groups of people before. Europe's right to privacy is in part a reaction to abuses that occurred in Nazi Germany.

Re: U.K. demand for a back door to Apple data threatens Americans, lawmakers say

#164

Post by zerocrates » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 7:34 PM UTC

Nifty3929 wrote: post #128

I keep saying this, and nobody believes me, but I'm just going to keep trying: These things happen because so often we focus the privacy conversation on corporations, which is exactly where the governments want it to be. My controversial but strong opinion is that privacy from corporations matters very little, but privacy from governments matters very much. We need to stop allowing the conversation to get distracted…

The way the law in the US works, it's much easier for the government to get your data once you've given it to a company first. So it's very much intertwined.

Re: U.K. demand for a back door to Apple data threatens Americans, lawmakers say

#165

Post by kmeisthax » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 7:34 PM UTC

Nifty3929 wrote: post #128

I keep saying this, and nobody believes me, but I'm just going to keep trying: These things happen because so often we focus the privacy conversation on corporations, which is exactly where the governments want it to be. My controversial but strong opinion is that privacy from corporations matters very little, but privacy from governments matters very much. We need to stop allowing the conversation to get distracted…

Prior to the Progressive Era of American politics, corporations used to act a lot more like organized crime - the state sans the legitimacy. What we're seeing with governments and corporations working together is a slow return to this era. As the second Trump administration solidifies, we're going to learn the hard way that we're long past the point of corporations just wanting to sell you something.

Re: U.K. demand for a back door to Apple data threatens Americans, lawmakers say

#166

Post by beeflet » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 7:35 PM UTC

cowfriend wrote: post #127

wonderwonder wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a government that believes in thought crimes. They will likely arrest people for having illegal memes on their phones or for texting messages to friends of which the government does not approve. If there was prequal to 1984, it would look something like this.

By "thought crimes", would you mean firing people for holding positions responsible for DEI policies which were assigned to them and which there was a legal obligation to enforce? Because that would NEVER happen in the US, certainly no government agency would fire its own people for having following legally enacted government policy just because that policy was no longer in fashion (though still legal government poli…

those are government workers

Re: U.K. demand for a back door to Apple data threatens Americans, lawmakers say

#167

Post by danielbln » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 7:37 PM UTC

ta1243 wrote: post #156

neogodless wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easier to not buy an iPhone than it was trying to prevent a politician I didn't trust from getting in office. In either case, collective action is, at best, the best you're going to have. Do regulations not have meaning?

You might think you're safe because you don't carry a phone, never upload a photo, etc. You drove across the country in a car you paid cash for while bemoaning cameras that catch you speeding, in the name of "privacy". Meanwhile meta knows exactly where you are as their face recognition attached it to your shadow profile when someone took a selfie with you in the background, you were seen on a ring doorbell by amazon…

They all do though. Do you think the government isn't tapping the genetic databases of 23andme and Ancestry? Or the bottomless data out that is Gmail. Or iCloud. Or Gmaps location data.

I'd rather not decide who is the worse privacy offender, companies or governments, and best restrict both to a need-to-know basis.

Re: U.K. demand for a back door to Apple data threatens Americans, lawmakers say

#168

Post by scarface_74 » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 7:38 PM UTC

ta1243 wrote: post #152

Nifty3929 wrote: post #128

I keep saying this, and nobody believes me, but I'm just going to keep trying: These things happen because so often we focus the privacy conversation on corporations, which is exactly where the governments want it to be. My controversial but strong opinion is that privacy from corporations matters very little, but privacy from governments matters very much. We need to stop allowing the conversation to get distracted…

I can hold my government accountable via the polling booth I have no control over Apple or Amazon or Alphabet. I can petition the government through the court system if it tries to put me in jail, the government functions with a massive series of checks and balances. I can't petition google, they are an unelected uncontrollable unaccountable entity that not even the government has power over

No you can’t.

If you live in California, with a population of 39.43 million, you get the same representation in the Senate as Wyoming with a population of 538,486 residents. Not to mention gerrymandering, the electoral college, etc. Your vote even as part of a collective doesn’t represent the will of the people.

We are seeing right now with President Musk that the President can complete ignore the constitution and the laws with “qualified immunity”. Is what we ste seeing now “accountability”?

Re: U.K. demand for a back door to Apple data threatens Americans, lawmakers say

#169

Post by uoaei » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 7:38 PM UTC

Nifty3929 wrote: post #128

I keep saying this, and nobody believes me, but I'm just going to keep trying: These things happen because so often we focus the privacy conversation on corporations, which is exactly where the governments want it to be. My controversial but strong opinion is that privacy from corporations matters very little, but privacy from governments matters very much. We need to stop allowing the conversation to get distracted…

Corporations are legally allowed to collect much more and more varied kinds of data than governments, in general.

Governments are not barred from purchasing data from private corporations, and it's unclear what an actually-enforceable and -effective regulation on that activity would look like.

Governments can do a lot more damage than corporations when they have that kind of data, true. But nothing stops them from acquiring it by issuing money (fiat currency in the US -- practically unlimited!) and employing it for their own ends.

So it seems like focusing on the collection of which kinds of data, irrespective of who is collecting, is the real concern here.

Re: U.K. demand for a back door to Apple data threatens Americans, lawmakers say

#170

Post by fujinghg » Thu, Feb 13, 2025, 7:39 PM UTC

UK here. All my data has been removed from iCloud and other public cloud services now. I cannot trust the UK government, the EU or the US government to do the right thing for my data. I also can't trust the cloud vendors to handle my data either on this basis as they are subject to the laws and as indicated recently intimately involved in political matters.

The only option left is to draw a hard line and stay behind it and of course withdraw the only minuscule stick I have which is my investment in their business.