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U.K. demand for a back door to Apple data threatens Americans, lawmakers say

washingtonpost.com

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Re: U.K. demand for a back door to Apple data threatens Americans, lawmakers say

#81

Post by croes »

gruez wrote: post #57
gman83 wrote: post #40

Why is it ok that the American government have a backdoor & have access to all non-American's personal data, but when the UK/EU wants something similar, suddenly it's a massive outrage. Is it just "we're stronger than you", so it's ok when we do it?

Define "backdoor". US authorities being able to demand data service providers have access to (eg. your gmail account) is nowhere comparable to an encryption backdoor, which is what's proposed here.

Because the US don’t ask for a backdoor in encryption, they build it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_EC_DRBG

Re: U.K. demand for a back door to Apple data threatens Americans, lawmakers say

#82

Post by graemep »

kstrauser wrote: post #35
gmueckl wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies cannot really stand up to governments. Unless another government gets involved, Apple will have to follow UK law if they want to keep doing business in that country. By the way, the US is not a stranger to that kind of overreach, either (e.g. CLOUD act).

Whatabout. Apple’s market cap is greater than UK’s GDP. Giant companies have a long tradition of flouting British authority.

market cap is not comparable to GDP. GDP is comparable to value added or profit.

Re: U.K. demand for a back door to Apple data threatens Americans, lawmakers say

#83

Post by nottorp »

adim86 wrote: post #77
swores wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm entirely against what the UK government wants, however I would say: Although you're right that tech people would still be able to choose secure encrypted options, the fact is that the majority of criminals by pure numbers are not very sophisticated - so while this sort of backdoor obviously wouldn't be a guarantee that every criminal conversation could be snooped on, it would work on the 90-99% (I'd guess towards…

The idea that criminals are not sophisticated is a weak excuse for this system. Once the government starts mining data from iPhones, criminals will quickly adapt while every law-abiding citizen gets caught in the crossfire. It opens the door for abuse: officials could easily spy on their partners, dig up dirt on rivals, or target those they dislike without breaking any laws. Meanwhile, cybercriminals will have an eas…

Criminals don't need to be all sophisticated anyway. They just need to know how to reach one of the sophisticated criminals and pay them to extract whatever they need.

Incidentally, as a non US and non UKer, my data with the major tech firms has no protection anyway. Welcome to the club, US citizens :)

Re: U.K. demand for a back door to Apple data threatens Americans, lawmakers say

#84

Post by croes »

pjc50 wrote: post #9

This is basically the reverse of the Microsoft Safe Harbor case. Europeans should be safe from US spying, Americans should be safe from UK spying, and so should everyone else.

Don’t confuse EU with Europe.

And the EU citizens aren’t safe from US spying, so why should US citizens be?

Re: U.K. demand for a back door to Apple data threatens Americans, lawmakers say

#85

Post by quesera »

nickslaughter02 wrote: post #45
graeme wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US does not require Apple to make a backdoor to its encryption.

How do you know that? Similarly to the UK, USA has a process to force companies to add back doors. For all we know it might the USA wanting access and using its five eyes allies to get it done.

Compelled speech, and compelled work, are both disallowed by the US constitution.

Apple successfully used this argument several years ago when the FBI tried to demand that they break a phone for an investigation.

If there is more recent news or legislation, perhaps I'm not remembering it?

Re: U.K. demand for a back door to Apple data threatens Americans, lawmakers say

#86

Post by croes »

gmueckl wrote: post #20
kstrauser wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this specific case: good. I don’t want USA companies cooperating with UK’s extremist policies like this one.

Companies cannot really stand up to governments. Unless another government gets involved, Apple will have to follow UK law if they want to keep doing business in that country. By the way, the US is not a stranger to that kind of overreach, either (e.g. CLOUD act).

> Companies cannot really stand up to governments.

That’s only valid for non-US companies or the US or Chinese government

Re: U.K. demand for a back door to Apple data threatens Americans, lawmakers say

#87

Post by trinsic2 »

swores wrote: post #53
kitd wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's the BBC report on the matter: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c20g288yldko It applies to content stored using ADP, Apple's E2EE tech. A backdoor into that would mean applying a backdoor into iOS on the phone itself, which is a much larger attack surface than anything centralised. All of which highlights the clownish nature of these regulations. They are so easy for bad actors to circumvent (eg using their…

I'm entirely against what the UK government wants, however I would say: Although you're right that tech people would still be able to choose secure encrypted options, the fact is that the majority of criminals by pure numbers are not very sophisticated - so while this sort of backdoor obviously wouldn't be a guarantee that every criminal conversation could be snooped on, it would work on the 90-99% (I'd guess towards…

There are already replies with sound arguments against the ideology that 90 of criminals arnt that sophisticated.

Secondly, I will also point out that criminals in general watch whats happening to other criminals. If people start going to jail because there mobile communications are being targeted, others will catch on and stop using mobile tech altogether for criminal activities.. People copy what works successfully, you don't need to be smart to do that. So yeah this argument is complete bullshit.

Re: U.K. demand for a back door to Apple data threatens Americans, lawmakers say

#88

Post by croes »

graemep wrote: post #82
kstrauser wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whatabout. Apple’s market cap is greater than UK’s GDP. Giant companies have a long tradition of flouting British authority.

market cap is not comparable to GDP. GDP is comparable to value added or profit.

Apple doesn’t need the UK business, but many people will get upset if their iPhone stops working.

That’s pretty big leverage.

Re: U.K. demand for a back door to Apple data threatens Americans, lawmakers say

#89

Post by BiteCode_dev »

Shank wrote: post #5

I think this is an unquestionable overreach on the UK's part. If you live in any country that isn't the UK, you should feel the threat from this: the UK government believes that it is entitled to a backdoor on your hardware, even if you've never stepped a foot on UK soil or intend to. Mass surveillance is a threat to everyone, but this is not an instance of that, which has guards against it, like encryption. This is…

The US, through the Intel ME software, already got a backdoor in most laptop. Using PRISM, it also had one on most big Saas, and now that it's over, it probably has a similar one we don't know about given Snowden's revelations about xkeyscore and how it works.

It's very likely they also have a backdoor in Apple phone with a gag order, given Apple was part of PRISM and we can't check their proprietary system.

We also know China has backdoors to any software or hardware product you want to sell there.

So it is a problem that the UK is asking for this for us, but from their perspective, they are just catching up with the current horrible state of things.

Re: U.K. demand for a back door to Apple data threatens Americans, lawmakers say

#90

Post by hnlmorg »

wonderwonder wrote: post #80
kitd wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's the BBC report on the matter: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c20g288yldko It applies to content stored using ADP, Apple's E2EE tech. A backdoor into that would mean applying a backdoor into iOS on the phone itself, which is a much larger attack surface than anything centralised. All of which highlights the clownish nature of these regulations. They are so easy for bad actors to circumvent (eg using their…

This is a government that believes in thought crimes. They will likely arrest people for having illegal memes on their phones or for texting messages to friends of which the government does not approve. If there was prequal to 1984, it would look something like this.

I really don’t like the UK governments stance on cyber security / counter-terrorism / et al either. In fact, as a UK citizen I’ve actively campaigned against a great many of their policies.

However this “thought police” and “arrested for posting memes” comment that often gets pointed on here is itself a nonsense meme.

What actually happened was people were arrested for instigating riots. This is no different to what happened in the US regarding the Capital Hill riots — people who helped organise it online were arrested too.

The UK has a long history of shitty policies invented to “protect people” but we need to be clear on what’s actually fact and what’s fiction. Otherwise you end up wasting energy protesting against things that are imaginary.

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