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Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

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Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#891

Post by ksec »

artyom wrote: post #201
gary_0 wrote: post #27

The Rust drama is an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds. Instead of decisively saying "no, never" or "yes, make it so," he has consistently equivocated on the Rust issue. Given the crisis of confidence among a sizeable (and very vocal) contingent of the Linux community, that decision has backfired horribly. And it's quite out of character for Linus not to have a blazingly clear opinion. (We all know his stan…

> an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds Exactly the point. IMHO the one and only thing that made Linux successful as a project is Linus' strong leadership - which has been criticized ad-nauseam over the years; yet it's the only thing that yields results. So in the specific instances (like this one) where he's not decisively, unequivocally, and even harshly saying "yes" or "no" to something, the community sho…

>"Community" is just a very naive ideal for me.

I guess you are safe to say this now. But from 2014 to 2024, open source is not about code licensing but about the Community.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#892

Post by steveklabnik »

mmooss wrote: post #883
AndyKelley wrote: post #422

I've been saying this for years now: the rust4linux folks are putting so much effort into trying to upstream their work, seems like they should instead put that effort into maintaining a fork. Arguably it would be less hours spent porting than arguing with humans. Certainly more pleasant! Then one of two things will happen: * Rust will prove its worth and their fork will be the better operating system. Distros will s…

Who would use a kernel that is essentially the mainline kernel with more Rust? Would Debian or Red Hat use it? Maybe some very hard-core Rust hobbyists, but otherwise, why use the Rustier kernel? But if they could demonstrate significant improvements in security and stability, then they would have something to say. Maybe the plan should be to rewrite a component that the mainline maintainers wouldn't agree to - somet…

There are drivers that exist only in Rust, so any distro that wants to support that hardware will. Like the Apple A3 silicon graphics driver. Iirc red hat and nvidia are also working on some Rust based drivers.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#893

Post by aprilnya »

weberer wrote: post #799
sushidev wrote: post #689

Such a huge discussion and I can’t really understand the problem from reading the comments or some of the excerpts linked. Can anyone explain to me what is the real issue here?

Developer A wants to make a change. Developer B rejects it. Developer A makes a big fuss about it on social media. The creator of the project steps in and chastises Developer A for his behavior. And as additional context, developer A has a history of causing drama on social media. So much that he even has his own page on KiwiFarms.

Incredibly biased summary there

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#894

Post by ksec »

gary_0 wrote: post #27

The Rust drama is an uncommon failure of leadership for Torvalds. Instead of decisively saying "no, never" or "yes, make it so," he has consistently equivocated on the Rust issue. Given the crisis of confidence among a sizeable (and very vocal) contingent of the Linux community, that decision has backfired horribly. And it's quite out of character for Linus not to have a blazingly clear opinion. (We all know his stan…

>..... Instead of decisively saying "no, never" or "yes, make it so," he has consistently equivocated on the Rust issue.......if Linus had just said "no, keep it downstream".

I have been thinking for years that the reason why Linux dont attack Rust like all other languages is that his close friend or close subordinate like Greg actually like rust. So rust as a language has huge leverage within the Linus decision mental model.

Not to mention the huge Rust gang both on the internet and around him. Friends that support Rust. Having the usual strong opinions of Rust like he had for C++ will obviously damage friendship.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#895

Post by ksec »

mu53 wrote: post #246
mort96 wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you say that C is "here to stay" in Linux? I would say so. I think you understood what was meant.

The drama is the problem, not rust. I don't know why, but either zealots choose rust or rust induces zealotry. Its exactly what Linus said.

>. I don't know why, but either zealots choose rust or rust induces zealotry.

That is actually quite well put together. May be The language that introduce absolute control also induces zealotry and produce zealots.

However that doesn't happen with Ada. So that cant be the full explanation.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#896

Post by tomnipotent »

dralley wrote: post #525
tomnipotent wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems like a perfectly reasonable response given Hector's prior comments. Pushing someones buttons until they explode and then pointing out they exploded isn't the indictment people think it is.

No, not really. The meaning of > "Being toxic on the right side of an argument is still toxic, [...]" Is very straightforwards. Toxic behavior is toxic behavior. Sima shouldn't lash out in "toxic" ways even if she thinks she's right. Otherwise shouldn't Hector be given grace because "his buttons were pushed until he exploded"? Like, you fundamentally can't have it both ways. Excuses for Sima's comments work for Hecto…

I fail to see anything in Sima's post that you linked that could be interpreted as toxic, rather than a perfectly normal human response. It's absolutely unreasonable to expect everyone to be perfect, always take the high road, or otherwise shrug off personal attacks.

Sima's responses can be excused. Even Hector's initial frustrations and his reactions to it can be excused. Hector's continued public reactions and escalations, however, are a different story and the reason folks are piling on him.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#897

Post by IntelMiner »

HereIGoAgain wrote: post #547
lll-o-lll wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the response from Dr Greg to Linus, https://lore.kernel.org/rust-for-linux/20250207121638.GA7356... adds some interesting insights. There seems to be some issue with unaccountable maintainers, and that’s a problem for innovation. If you can’t even get to the point of “technical debate” (we aren’t interested, sorry), then what hope innovation? These are “people problems”, and there are no easy or good answers,…

The short of his rant is that he wants a "Code Of Standards for maintainers" in addition to a CoC, in order to witch hunt people he feels "gets in the way." Yikes, this is EXACTLY what Linus was talking about except an order of magnitude worse!

>in order to witch hunt people he feels "gets in the way."

When has this ever happened with the Linux CoC? The only people who I've seen banging pots and pans together about the CoC are folks who like to sealion [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#898

Post by nailer »

uecker wrote: post #746
nailer wrote: post #612

I hope they fork Linux. A safer kernel and modern faster development practices would be excellent for the entire ecosystem

Absolutely! If Rust and the modern development practices are truly so much better (I doubt this, but I am old and could be wrong), then why not show this by creating better kernels and other projects!

Exactly. And I feel the same as you do: the Rust community can put it’s money where it’s mouth is and if nobody wants safe Linux or they can’t make it happen, then fine they can be happy to lose.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#900

Post by mmooss »

steveklabnik wrote: post #892
mmooss wrote: post #883

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who would use a kernel that is essentially the mainline kernel with more Rust? Would Debian or Red Hat use it? Maybe some very hard-core Rust hobbyists, but otherwise, why use the Rustier kernel? But if they could demonstrate significant improvements in security and stability, then they would have something to say. Maybe the plan should be to rewrite a component that the mainline maintainers wouldn't agree to - somet…

There are drivers that exist only in Rust, so any distro that wants to support that hardware will. Like the Apple A3 silicon graphics driver. Iirc red hat and nvidia are also working on some Rust based drivers.

Do the Rust drivers provide significant benefits over C equivalents (or over typical C drivers), enough to make it worth switching?

Rust may have to really prove itself with results. And why shouldn't it?

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