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Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

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Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#741

Post by uecker »

imtringued wrote: post #668
Aurornis wrote: post #538

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My experience with Rust and people who use Rust has actually been great. There seems to be an entire second world of “Rust community” and Rust zealots online who are heavy on the drama, though. It really does feel like an alternate Rust universe. Although when I think about it, several of my other interests and hobbies are exactly like this. Great in the real world, but as soon as you step into certain online spaces…

I don't think that's true. I think the C guys told themselves that writing safe C code is just a matter of skill, but data shows that the amount of skill necessary to avoid writing unsafe C just isn't there. The average C developer isn't as competent as they claim. You can lie to yourself and say that the same security problems exist in other languages, but that isn't true. When I check the vulnerabilities marked as…

I think already phrasing it like this "the C guys" is inflammatory and not helpful. The C community is huge and there is also a large part interested in more secure programming. Also the idea that tall C code is hopelessly unsafe while all Rust code is perfectly memory safe are both far from the truth. In reality, you can make C code quite good and you make Rust code very unsafe. While Rust certainly has some advantage, this is not as black-and-white as the Rust marketing wants you to believe. But this fuels the "C must die" and "we are on the right side of history and if you can not see this, you are an enemy" lines of thinking some people have.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#742

Post by pornel »

hinkley wrote: post #620
throwaway2037 wrote: post #614

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can I ask something controversial? What if Rust never becomes a significant part of the Linux kernel? What if they keep stalling and all the people pushing for it give up? There seems to be this faith on HN that Rust absolutely belongs in the Linux kernel and if not, the project is a failure.

If you wait long enough a Rust competitor will gain traction. And honestly I wonder if that might not be for the best. How many of rust’s features have only been tried a couple of times?

The Rust project started 15 years ago, and spent a decade growing userbase, library ecosystem, and proving that it's a serious language that's here to stay (which some C maintainers still don't believe).

We don't have a Rust-killer language yet. The closest one is SafeC++ (Circle), but it's still a single-dev proof of concept, and the C++ leadership firmly rejected it. Zig went in a different direction. Swift is adding Rust-like features, but it's unclear if that's going to be compelling. Ownership and borrowing is spreading to Mojo and Ocaml, but they're not kernel languages.

Even if there's a Rust-killer tomorrow, it will go through the same growing pains of rewriting everything and being treated as just a temporary hype. It will have to prove why use the new language instead of Rust that's already here, and had even more time to establish itself.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#743

Post by Ecco »

bsimpson wrote: post #309
nubinetwork wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I never submitted a patch personally, I had once conferred with some of the input devs to add a trackpad to the synaptics driver... they were queueing up an update to add other trackpads, and they said they would add mine... 5 years later, it's still not there. It was just a one-liner, and I'm not really sure why it never got added... On the other hand, I once ran into an issue with uboot where a bad update kno…

FWIW, I have submitted a couple small patches to get the display and gamepad for my Lenovo Legion Go recognized correctly - probably similar levels of complexity to your change. One was to input and one was to display quirks. They did take months to finally land, and the whole process of getting my corp email address to be compatible with their email-based PR system was way more of a faff than it had any right to be,…

Thanks!

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#744

Post by baranul »

59nadir wrote: post #715
baranul wrote: post #708

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are a lot of C programmers who do not like or are not fond of Zig or Odin. For highly proficient C and C++ programmers, many consider them not worth their time. Not even counting, that both Zig and Odin are in beta. It's an investment to become as proficient in the other language. An example is Muratori from handmade hero, who publicly stated he dislikes Zig and pretty much sees it as a confused mess[1]. He thi…

I would suggest linking to a timestamped point in the video instead of the entire thing. With regards to Odin having metaprogramming this is either a misunderstanding on your part of what was said or a misunderstanding from Casey Muratori with regards to Odin; Zig has a much stronger claim to having metaprogramming with `comptime` being as powerful as it is, whereas Odin only scarcely can be said to have a limited "s…

True that Odin is admittedly quite limited in that area. Muratori made the case that Jai was far beyond both Zig and Odin, thus recommending its use and what made it attractive for him. The other issue, is investing in languages that are in beta.

The counter, in regards to "any proficiency above 0", is there are other alternative languages (that are easier to learn and use) where knowledge of C can be put to immediate use too. Getting up to speed in those languages, would likely be much faster, if not more productive for less proficient or experienced programmers.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#745

Post by uecker »

dingi wrote: post #160

Rust or not, mixing two different languages within a single project is a sure fire way for a maintenance nightmare. Specially for a large project like Linux. I sincerely don’t want something like that happening to the Linux kernel. Just let it die with C. However it may seem improbable, writing a kernel from scratch is the way to go for new wanna be system programming languages.

Indeed. I grew up with open-source. I still like C very much. I do not think Linux would die. But I may be wrong and Rust is the future. In the past, people just created their own projects. If they were truly better, eventually the were adopted more and more, but who did not like it, could also just stay with the older projects as long as they were recently maintained.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#746

Post by uecker »

nailer wrote: post #612

I hope they fork Linux. A safer kernel and modern faster development practices would be excellent for the entire ecosystem

Absolutely! If Rust and the modern development practices are truly so much better (I doubt this, but I am old and could be wrong), then why not show this by creating better kernels and other projects!

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#747

Post by tw1984 »

eqvinox wrote: post #721
tw1984 wrote: post #719

[flagged]

You're missing context. Linux Rust devs themselves were unhappy with Hector's flaming "on their behalf".

again, as a user, I don't care. I use linux & visiting HN because of tech, not because of any politics.

Martin's patch should not be delayed or rejected because of the rust language, it is an approved language. If some maintainer has issue with such rust language approval, they should address that particular issue not patches using that language. They can also choose to resign.

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#748

Post by robertlagrant »

lll-o-lll wrote: post #551
HereIGoAgain wrote: post #547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The short of his rant is that he wants a "Code Of Standards for maintainers" in addition to a CoC, in order to witch hunt people he feels "gets in the way." Yikes, this is EXACTLY what Linus was talking about except an order of magnitude worse!

> The short of his rant… This does not read as a rant at all to me. Rather it seeks to highlight a problem using an example from his own work and proposes a possible solution (with a previous caveat of “I don’t know how to fix this”). > "Code Of Standards for maintainers" in addition to a CoC He wants maintainers to behave in some pre-determined understandable fashion. He wants some accountability, and that seems rea…

> This is not a “maintainers must do what I want”, this is “let’s set basic expectations” and ensure people follow them. Whatever those should be.

But presumably it's not whatever they should be. It's what he wants them to be. And what should happen if they're not followed?

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#749

Post by secondcoming »

adager wrote: post #545

Marcan hasn't actually resigned. He's still posting on the LKML under a well-known alias. See https://lkml.org/lkml/2025/2/7/15 for example.

Is this the same person who has YouTube videos narrated by a cartoon Japanese schoolgirl?

Re: Asahi Linux lead developer Hector Martin resigns from Linux kernel

#750

Post by robertlagrant »

adastra22 wrote: post #683
tsimionescu wrote: post #566

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Someone will have to take over Linus' role. There's no way that kernel development can work without a person in charge, at least not in anyway that is remotely similar to today.

Not being remotely similar to today could be a very good thing.

If you can point to a better model of a more successful kernel that would be interesting to read about.
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